During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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I take it that includes making a CM interpretation of a characters who are still villains in canon but not a CM in canon then.
@64935
Bit of a nitpick, but I don't think Chimera being a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is really necessary for Halloween's entry. It's not like he's putting her through any harm.
edited 22nd Jul '16 11:46:07 AM by Awesomekid42
Isn't there a trope for that? Now, if the character is ALREADY a CM, or close to it (Medusa, Joffrey), it's fine.
edited 22nd Jul '16 11:43:58 AM by ACW
I think there are some times when "monsterizing" a non-villainous character is alright here. For example, if the whole thing is re-imagined from the ground up, like in There Will Be Brawl, or if the fanfic takes place thousands of years in the future and said character had gradually changed into a completely different person.
@ Fighteer,
Well I think it depends on which character we are talking about, yes turning the main characters from MLP or Carebears into monsters is just stupid.
But what if someone does takes a minor villain from Marvel, DC, Star Trek, etc and turns that character into a monster?
What if someone wrote a Superman fan fic where say Prankster is a vicious Serial Killer? Marvel and DC does that all time, take lame villains from the 60s and turn into monsters (Purple Man was a generic Silver Age bad guy who was changed to a serial killer/rapist in 2001 by Bendis, the Marvel version of the Scarecrow was lame villain until Ghost rider writers turned him into a child killing psychopath).
I think you argue that minor villain were just generic in serious fictional works, but became real terrors in fan fiction can count.
edited 22nd Jul '16 12:03:31 PM by Overlord
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I believe that, unless the character is public domain or you hold rights to (or have permissions to use) the IP, you do not have any right to have your changes treated as equivalent to canon.
edited 22nd Jul '16 1:17:48 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Wait, wait, Sabertooth from X-Men as a complete monster? Did no one other than me read X-Factor in the 90's. He spent several years as a member of a heroic team and had some genuine humanizing moments. Is he a psycho asshole, yes, but he's had too much depth put into him over the years to fit this trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickI think it's a bit drastic to just put a blanket ban on ALL characters becoming a Complete Monster in a fan fic via adaptational villainy. I can understand the ban on Ron the Death Eater examples, but I don't see anything wrong with an already villainous character being a lot worse in an AU or something, like say Electro going from a dumb thug with awesome powers in the Spider-Man comics to a power-hungry mass-murderer with delusions of grandeur in a fanfic or something..
Oh, and I was just going to ask: is everyone okay with me reserving the discussion date for any potential qualifiers in Jason Bourne?
edited 22nd Jul '16 1:29:14 PM by FriedWarthog
This.
RE: Fanfiction
I think that unless someone has a specific fanfic they're bringing up there's not a lot of point to this conversation. Fanfiction covers a wide variety of formats and styles and the answers to some of these questions might vary depending on that.
For instance, I would really, really object to somebody trying to turn a character who is not a CM into a CM in a fic that is supposedly canon compliant. You don't get to claim your fic is set in the regular Marvel universe and then have Punisher try to nuke New York.
On the other hand, I once read a fanfic that was essentially a script for an X-Men TV show. It wasn't pretending to be set in the regular universe, but was rather meant to be an adaptation. Nobody qualified in it, but if someone had I might consider putting them up even if their comic counterpart was not a qualifier.
The problem with this show is that evil overrides anything. Someone with a mixture of human and evil ancestry will default to evil. They cannot fight it for long. It's always a losing battle. One of the few people with an evil ancestry who escaped his heritage was that warlock who became a priest before his first kill. Human/demon hybrids were considered to fall to evil by default - their human heritage could do nothing to prevent that, and the hybrids we hear about are usually the worst of their kind because they've had a lot to prove to full-blooded demons. That includes Cole. Even Cole was believed to only be temporarily tethered by love and destined to fall back to evil if the bond of love broke.
So, half-human heritage doesn't really give anyone an out, and Kevin wasn't an unusual villain. In this show, evil heritage overrides everything except giving oneself to God.
edited 22nd Jul '16 3:07:54 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.It took me a while, but I finally finished watching Transformers: Armada & Energon, so now I can post my effort post for Unicron from the Unicron Trilogy. This is my longest effort post to date, so I apologize if it's too wordy. Without further to do, let's discuss Unicron.
Who is He and What Does He Do?
Unicron is a planet-sized Transformer who sustains himself on planets as well as the negative emotions of others such as anger and hatred. Millions of years ago, Unicron attacked the planet Cybertron, but his assault was repelled thanks to the efforts of Omega Supreme. Damaged from the fight, Unicron disguised himself as one of Cybertron’s moons and waited for the perfect time to strike. Once the war between the Autobots and Decepticons was under way, Unicron decided to escalate the war even further. Using his own cells, Unicron created a race of miniature Transformers called Mini-Cons, who wielded immense power. Unicron planned to have both sides fight over the Mini-Cons and, once he had regained enough power from their conflict, use the Mini-Cons to corrupt the Transformers, allowing him to slowly consume every one of them while they were still alive. Unicron managed to pull this off in one alternate timeline, but his plans were foiled when the Mini-Cons gained free will. Fearing that their presence on Cybertron was causing too much suffering, the Mini-Cons left and eventually crash-landed on Earth. As the war began to die down, Unicron went into a deep slumber.
In 2010, the Mini-Cons were unearthed and Unicron began to stir. Unicron sent Sideways, one of his heralds, to Earth and ordered him to drag out the conflict until he could be fully awakened. Unicron left Sideways to his own devices for the most part, but there were a few times where he helped him with his schemes. This included creating a digital realm for Sideways that allowed him to sneak into the Autobot’s base, creating a feral clone of Optimus Prime that Sideways used to attack the Autobots and Decepticons, and sending a black hole to destroy Cybertron.
Sideways managed to recruit Thrust to Unicron’s cause and the two conspired to steal the three Mini-Con weapons, as they had enough energy to fully awaken their master. Thrust only managed to steal two of them, but it was enough for Unicron to shed his rocky disguise. Unicron began to assault Cybertron with lightning storms. Starscream launched a suicide attack against Unicron after failing to convince Galvatron to join the Autobots’ fight against him. In response, Unicron killed Starscream before his attack was even able to reach him. Starscream’s sacrifice was enough to convince Galvatron into accepting an alliance with the Autobots.
Sideways stole the Star Saber (the last Mini-Con weapon) from Starsceam after he had died, and used it to finally awaken Unicron. Unicron soon began to devour Cybertron. Unicron destroyed a recon fleet, so a smaller one was sent to survey the surface. They were attacked by some drones (which led to the deaths of numerous Red Shirts), and Unicron finally transformed into robot mode. Thrust was crushed to death when he got trapped between some chinks in Uncron’s armor, to which Unicron neither noticed nor cared. Unicron then blew out a huge chunk out of Cybertron using his laser cannon, but he was stalled a duplicate of himself formed by the Mini-Cons. Optimus and Galvatron sneaked their way into Unicron in order to retrieve the Mini-Con weapons, with the kids and their Mini-Cons following as well.
Once inside, Optimus and Galvatron came across Sideways, who revealed that he was an extension of Unicron all along (this doesn’t gel at all with Sideways’s other appearances, so the implication here is that Unicron controlled him during the events of Armada). Unicron drained Galvatron of his energy and tried to convince Optimus to merge with him. Unicron derided Optimus for his quest for peace, and accused him of being just as war hungry as the Decepticons. As this was going on, Unicron continued to grow stronger with every attack that was thrown against him. Unicron soon stripped the Mini-Cons of their free will, and began draining the life out of the kids. They soon found themselves trapped within Unicron’s mind, but they managed to restore the Mini-Cons personalities and escape along with Galvatron. The Mini-cons then freed the Mini-Con weapons and deactivated Unicron. However, this was only temporary as Galvatron’s hatred of Optimus caused Unicron to stir once more. Knowing that their continued conflict would only continue to feed the planet eater, Galvatron allowed himself to be consumed by Unicron in order to stop him. With not enough hatred left to sustain him, Unicron perished and Cybertron was saved... for the moment.
Unicron had actually survived his defeat on Cybertron and continued his way across the cosmos, looking for new worlds to consume. He stumbled upon the homeworld of Alpha Q and started devouring the planet and its inhabitants. In a last-ditch effort to stop Unicron, Scorponok blew up the planet. While he was unable to completely destroy Unicron, Scorponok`s efforts were able to disable him and put him out of commission. Alpha Q was the sole survivor of Unicron’s attack and spent the next decade trapped within his unconscious body. Eventually Alpha Q discovered that Unicron had the ability to recreate the worlds that he had destroyed and sought to revive Unicron with Energon in order to bring them back. Galvatron, now going by Megatron again, was resurrected in the process and he desired to revive Unicron as well, only he wanted to use Unicron to conquer and destroy worlds instead of restoring them.
Unicron’s hunger for Energon began to grew, and he briefly attacked the occupants inside his body. Unicron impaled Megatron’s troops with large spikes and drained them of their Energon, but he slipped back into inactivity once his hunger was sated. Eventually, Megatron managed to succeed in his plan to revive Unicron. Shockblast tried to assume control over Unicron for himself, but he was driven mad by Unicron’s immense power. Shockblast managed to come to his senses and tried to attack Unicron, but he was crushed to death beneath Unicron’s fist. Unicron soon regained control over his body and took over Megatron’s as well.
Now fully in control, Unicron set his sights on destroying the planets that Alpha Q had managed to restore; devouring Blizzard Planet before making his way towards Circuit Planet. During this, Unicron also tried to consume the Decepticons while they fled for their lives. The Autobots fought Unicron, but they were clearly outmatched. Primus heard of Unicron’s awakening and sent a surge of energy to the weakened Autobots and made Optimus Supreme the size of Unicron. As Optimus and Unicron fought, Unicron destroyed more of Alpha Q’s planets purely out of spite. Eventually Optimus was able to destroy Unicron’s body and save the universe... for about five minutes.
Unicron had actually been split into two after his defeat. His consciousness still hid deep within Megatron’s mind, while his Spark floated in the depths of space. Unicron subconsciously led Megatron to a vat of Super Energon that lied beneath Cyberton, which managed to increase the Decepticon leader’s power and caused him to take the name Galvatron again because toys. Unicron planted the idea in Galvatron’s head to use Cybertron as a battering ram to destroy Alpha Q’s planets, successfully managing to destroy a handful before Optimus Supreme managed to bring Cybertron to a stop.
After Galvatron exposed himself to more Super Energon and grew to planet-size, Unicron took control of his body yet again and attempted to merge his spark with Galvatron so he could become whole again. In order to fight Galvatron, Optimus drew upon the power of Unicron that resided within all Transformers. Want an explanation for that? Too bad, Energon doesn’t give one. The two duelled on Jungle Planet and Optimus managed to drain the essence of Unicron out of Galvatron, returning him to normal.
Galvatron had enough of Unicron’s presence and went to destroy his spark once and for all. This only resulted in him getting possessed a third time. As Optimus and Galvatron fought again, Primus managed to create a star out of the Super Energon in order to restore life to Alpha Q’s planets, and intended to use Unicron’s essence to ignite it. Galvatron managed to regain control of his body and after vowing he would never allow himself to be possessed by Unicron again, he threw himself into the sun and managed to destroy Unicron for good this time.
Redeeming Qualities?
When Optimus and Galvatron travel inside Unicron at the end of Armada, Unicron does ask for Optimus’s consent to merge with him. Of course, Unicron makes it clear that alternative for Optimus is death. Unicron’s speech to Optimus about how he is a hypocrite who loves war is done just to break Prime and turn his own ideals against him. Not to mention that as a warmonger, Unicron is expressing smug pride throughout.
Unicron views his heralds as mere pawns. He views Sideways as an extension of himself and barely notices that Thrust exists. When they’re both killed, Unicron shows no emotion or acknowledgement of their demise. In Energon he resorts to bodily possession when comes to relying on others and strips the Mini-Cons of their free will in Armada when they rebel against him, so he doesn’t care about the free will of others.
Freudian Excuse?
So, is Unicron Made of Evil in this continuity? Not entirely, at least not as much as his Aligned counterpart. First, Unicron does drive Shockblast insane when he tries to control him and it’s mentioned that Unicron awakens the most basic instincts in the ones he controls. However, Galvatron wasn’t turned into a mindless brute when he controlled Unicron, only possessed. The Mini-Cons were originally parts of Unicron, but before they gained their free will they were completely robotic in their actions and not actively malicious. At the end of Energon, Primus specifically mentions that Unicron has both “a good heart and a black heart” and since Unicron does have the ability to restore the worlds he has destroyed, this means that he just chooses not to.
But doesn’t Unicron rely on pain and suffering for sustenance? First of all, that aspect is dropped after Armada. Second, Unicron is shown to destroy planets without feeding upon them in Energon, so he doesn’t destroy planets solely to satisfy his hunger. Finally, the climax of Armada showed that Galvatron’s hatred of Optimus alone was enough to revive Unicron after being deactivated. The hatred of one guy can keep Unicron going, so Unicron’s just being greedy when he escalates conflicts and destroys worlds.
One last detail is that in Cybertron, it’s mentioned that Unicron’s death does disrupt the Balance Between Good and Evil and this creates a black hole that threatens to destroy the universe. I haven’t finished Cybertron yet, so anybody who's seen Cybertron can feel free to comment on this.
Heinousness?
In both Armada and Energon, Unicron is the top-tier threat. He is directly responsible for the main conflicts in both shows and his destruction is the end-goal for the Autobots. The only time the heroes even consider sparing Unicron is when they have the opportunity to use him to repair the damage he has caused. Megatron underestimating how much of a threat Unicron is ends up biting him in the ass in both series and he winds up being the one who has to sacrifice himself in order to stop him in both series finales. Even his heralds follow him out of fear, as Sideways is terrified when he thinks he has failed him.
Unicron has consumed several planets with life on it, with at least one having sentient life on it. Now in Cybertron, Megatron does attempt to destroy the universe as well. But even then, Megatron wants to remake the universe in his own image, while Unicron’s end goal is the destruction of space itself. Plus Megatron has more resources in Cybertron, inheriting some of Unicron’s powers and using powerful cosmic artifacts to accelerate the black hole formed after Unicron’s defeat.
Verdict?
I think that their might be some debate over this incarnation Unicron, but I'm going to give him a
. He has enough personality, he's not Made of Evil from what I can tell, and he has the capability to do good but squanders it. Unicron's unmatched when it comes to the scale of his actions in both Armada & Energon and he is more of a manipulator than other incarnations. I think he counts, although I can understand if others think that he does not.
edited 22nd Jul '16 3:54:04 PM by chasemaddigan
I'll give a
to that Unicron. Incidentally, I think the longest effortpost so far has been the one for Legends Of Tomorrow!Vandal Savage at over 5000 words (the one for Bill Cipher was also lengthy).
edited 22nd Jul '16 4:33:33 PM by ACW

I think we've agreed that OC's in fics can be monsters, as long as it's not a darkfic or the equivalent whose main purpose is to troll people with how awful the author can make the setting. I do not, however, agree with the idea of allowing fics to "monsterize" canon characters, and I will never agree with it.
edited 22nd Jul '16 11:36:04 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"