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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64351: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:39:34 PM

Point in fact: we wouldn't allow 'Fluttershy the axe Murderer'...we would allow a legitimate original villain, though.

We have already agreed not to slash fanworks, though. It's a legit medium in multiple ways.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64352: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:41:19 PM

I certainly wouldn't miss any fanwork examples if that day ever came, but for the moment I'm not for removing an entire medium.

I'll third cutting the entries that haven't been brought to the forum proper though.

edited 21st Jul '16 12:42:22 PM by VeryMelon

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#64353: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:45:15 PM

Yeah, I'll fourth cutting entries not brought here first.

Shadow?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#64354: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:49:31 PM

I'll agree with cutting entries that weren't brought up on the forum as well. Feel like that should be an in general thing really.

edited 21st Jul '16 12:49:48 PM by Awesomekid42

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#64355: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:49:49 PM

Besides, if the examples are never brought back to be discussed after they're removed, we might never have to worry about them again.

edited 21st Jul '16 12:50:21 PM by AustinDR

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#64356: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:55:22 PM

I really think I would end up effortposting just a few of them if they did get burned.tongue

Not that anyone cares, but since I said I would look into doing the same for Daemon from Tamers Forever, I might as well say now I don't think I'll bother. He may have enough of a sadistic streak to edge him out of GDV territory, but I'm not enthused. (I binged it during high school, rereading it for this drove home that, shocker, it's not great writing.)

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#64357: Jul 21st 2016 at 1:09:21 PM

I don't think canon characters in fanworks should count, except maybe in AU non-schlock settings, but original characters in non-schlock could qualify.

Oissu!
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#64358: Jul 21st 2016 at 1:13:25 PM

I know Appelox and Gralo were effort-posted here.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#64360: Jul 21st 2016 at 1:56:10 PM

I In the ymmv page for GreenLantern, there is an entry for Volthoom that does not appear on the main C comics page. A quick search doesn't really show he was discussed that much, so was the entry added without forum input?

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64362: Jul 21st 2016 at 2:24:00 PM

@HT: I think we actually did discuss a rule forbidding fanworks that surpass the heinous standard of the original, but the thread couldn't come to a consensus.

For the record, I don't see why so many of the forum people get so pissed at bad fanfic compared to other bad fiction. I know I've proposed some bad movies, and there wasn't a whole lot of issue with them being [tup]'d.

edited 21st Jul '16 2:24:32 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64363: Jul 21st 2016 at 2:25:39 PM

Because it wasn't about quality.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#64364: Jul 21st 2016 at 2:26:17 PM

Did we mention fan works that change the setting of the original work?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#64365: Jul 21st 2016 at 2:37:49 PM

@LoreDeluxe: Volthoom's listed on the DC page.

edited 21st Jul '16 2:38:03 PM by Scraggle

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#64366: Jul 21st 2016 at 2:49:13 PM

[up][up][up]I think that's been repeatedly shown to be untrue.

I'm pretty much sitting out this discussion because, as I've said in the past, I'm really not interested in carrying on a solitary crusade in the name of stupid grimdark fanfic that you could only make me read at gunpoint. But there is a Double Standard here, and it bugs me.

edited 21st Jul '16 2:49:29 PM by nrjxll

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64367: Jul 21st 2016 at 3:34:18 PM

[up][up] Yeah. He's under the New 52 group though, not the Post-Crisis group.
[up] To be fair, we HAVE cut a couple of grimdark, plotless schlock. Interestingly, some quality, decent-if-formulaic, epic works can have the worst CMs.

edited 21st Jul '16 3:46:16 PM by ACW

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#64368: Jul 21st 2016 at 6:51:59 PM

Having read through the The Electric Tale of Pikachu, I want to bring the Black Fog up to discussion.

Who Is He?

The Black Fog is a high-level Haunter who's preyed on humans and Pokemon for a very long time, suddenly appearing and then leaving after it steals their souls using Dream Eater. The Black Fog is an ancient Pokemon who has been around since the times where Pokémon were treated as gods. Because of it being accustomed to that treatment, it became arrogant and prideful when things changed.

What Has he Done?

The Black Fog has attacked Sabrina (the Kanto Psychic Gym Leader who's undergone a pretty hefty Adaptational Personality Change) at least twice. Once in the present-day and once in the past where the encounter killed her old team of Pokemon. In the present day, it's put Sabrina in a coma using Dream Eater to take her soul.

In the ensuing battle against Ash, Brock, and others, Black Fog nearly kills Sabrina's Abra and Ash's Fearow through the use of Night Shade and Dream Eater, showing no hesitance to do so.

Finally, Ash almost captures the Black Fog, but it uses Self-Destruct to commit suicide out of pride. It had no intention of letting a lowly human try and capture a "god" like it.

Freudian Excuse?

None.

Redeeming Qualities

Sabrina provides an Alas, Poor Villain moment in that, despite hating Black Fog all this type, she can't help but cry after it dies.

Heinousness

While Electric Tale of Pikachu is a bit darker, kinda like Pokemon Special, the Black Fog is the only character outright known to kill and steal the souls of other people and Pokemon. It's a rather refreshing change from the franchise's Not Evil, Just Misunderstood stance. A Pokemon that was truly a villain.

Final Verdict

Despite all that, I'm leaning towards a [tdown]. I don't think one chapter was enough for CM status, leaving pride and arrogance as its basic personality traits. So I'm not even sure if that disqualifies it from GDV status. What say you all?

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#64369: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:36:09 PM

If you don't think he counts, then why bother effortposting him to begin with?

But I hate to sound rude, so I'll admit that I'm leaning towards a [tup]. Might wait for more input before making it a solid yes though.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#64370: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:37:17 PM

[up] Discussion purposes.

Eh, the Black Fog sounds pretty bad, but not really CM material. Not a Generic Doomsday Villain, but not a CM either. [tdown]

edited 21st Jul '16 7:37:54 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#64371: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:38:06 PM

[up] Echoing this opinion.

He looks really cool though, and it'd be fun if he were to show up in a game someday!

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#64373: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:50:31 PM

@Fried Warthog: *shrugs* I wouldn't be the first person to do that.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64374: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:57:43 PM

No to the Black Fog. Doesn't sound quite bad enough.

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64375: Jul 21st 2016 at 8:06:04 PM

First, Tunga Khan:

  • 7 Women: Tunga Khan is a Mongolian Raider attacking villages in rural China, along with the British missions in the area. Once his forces sack one, Tunga Khan has everyone in the area slaughtered, with women raped en masse. When he comes to the local village that one mission is located near, Tunga Khan has all the villager's rounded up and executed via firing squad. When the local priest is executed for trying to save a woman, Tunga Khan refuses to let the local doctor treat the priest's newborn baby unless the doctor sleeps with him. Forced to agree, he agrees to trade the freedom of her friends in return for her becoming his concubine. Tunga Khan later murders one of his own men who proves himself a talented fighter, simply to brook no competition, being little more than a murderous, rapist brute.

No tot he Black Fog...don't believe it's heinous enough.


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