During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Yeah, that's what I was concerned about. I don't know if this helps establish a character, but he is a Sir Swears-a-Lot character (he says the c word twice).
edited 15th Jul '16 6:54:36 PM by bobg
jjjSpeaking of which, as someone who isn't familiar with G.I. Joe, why doesn't the mainstream comic Cobra Commander count? Was he given redeeming traits?
edited 15th Jul '16 8:02:07 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
for Wong Chu, Halloween, Cobra Commander, and Manga Bakura.
to Purge Villains and Anime Bakura
Well it is now 2 weeks since Marco Polo has aired on Netflix and I believe that a character in that series has a potential to qualify as such. With a further a due here is my 2nd candidate for Marco Polo, Ahmad.
Who is he? What has he done?
Ahmad serves as the Khan's Minister of Finance and while he initially appears as an overall okay guy in season 1, it is revealed in the finale that he has a painting of him with dozens if not more slaughtered while he is sitting on the throne with the khans head indicating betrayal. He goes through with this in season 2 as the seasons Big Bad. This begins when he find out Marco Polo has captured the child emperor of the Song Dynasty, knowing that the child's death would cause untold chaos in the city pressures and manipulate the Khan into killing him by lying that killing him would cause people to know that he is in charge and submit to him. While the Khan shows great remorse for killing the child, Ahmad doesn't and simply hangs the child's corpse on the city's gates in front of the people. He also goes behind the Kahn's back to have make an alliance between the Crusaders and Kaidu and his tribe. Once that has been accomplished he give Kaidu's tribe gear and equipment from the main empire and orders them to slaughter and destroy any mongol tribe they can all to make the Khan look bad a lose votes. When one of his spies Mei Lin starts to rebel against him he blackmails her by threatening her daughter's life a girl whom he already sold to slavery for Nayan. He also plans the Khan's son Jingim, the man who risked his life to save his, to be killed which only failed because of Marco Polo's own suspicion on Ahmed. He then weakens the Khan army by send most of his men to the Mongolian capital where he would take over as regent while waiting for the Khan and his family to die. When that fails however and the Khans children along with Hundred Eye reach the capital, he order his men to kill him while he hides in his bedroom. That fails when Mei Lin tracks him down where he reveals he regretted none of the thing he did only wishing that he should had butchered Lin's daughter right in front of her eye.
Freudian Excuse
This is more or less complicated. He didn't seem sad or even upset with The Khan wiping out his people and killing his family, he is actually okay to terms with this and simply moved on finding the situation better. Then one day, he slept with a prostitute from his homeland who turned out to be his own mother who he thought had died; he simply murders her showing very little emotion in doing so.
Redeeming Qualities
None. He has no real love ones he plans to murder his entire adopted family, he didn't care that his parents died and when he find out that one of them is still alive, albeit a prostitute he just slept with, he coldly murders her. While he plans his betrayal against the Khan after that this doesn't really stem to what his mother's current status is or even the fact he just slept with his mother, but rather due to believing the Khan had hurt his pride, despite the Khan not knowing she was still alive, thinking she was dead. As for his relations with Mei Lin it isn't even close to love, but was just using her as a spy as well as to relieve stress via sex and when she starts to rebel he has no problems using her daughter's life as leverage.
Heinousness
He pressures the Khan to kill child then hangs said child in the gates for everyone to see, has multiple tribes destroyed with the people there slaughter, murders his own mother in cold blood after having sex with her, tries to have Jingim killed twice despite the latter saving him, Then wish that he could have had Mei Lin's daughter butchered so yeah, I believe that he more or less surpasses the heinous standard.
Final Verdict
I would give him a
unless the Freudian Excuse is a disqualifies him.
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Now that I'm hearing that from you that sounds pretty disturbing just forget I even mentioned that!
edited 15th Jul '16 8:44:15 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI'm not sure for Ahmad. The issue is when he found out he slept with his mother, he sort of...broke, and projected all his self loathing and rage onto Kublai. The other problem was his mother had been found wanting in Kublai's harem, and had been sent off to a brothel. He felt betrayed, disgusted and despised himself.
edited 15th Jul '16 8:23:00 PM by Lightysnake
You think that finding out the woman you just slept with is your mother could be heartwarming moment? Not a chance in hell. I'm going to go with Lightysnake on this one. It sounds like he broke after that experience and projected all his problems with it onto Kublai. "No"
@DDD: The first Cobra Commander takes a bullet to the head that reduces his skull to an eggshell. He had given a former G.I. Joe operative the chance to kill his Arch-Enemy, but the Joe killed the Commander instead for the greater good.
And, before anyone asks, the first Commander does NOT count. Not only is he laughably out-heinoused by the second Commander (This was partially due to pragmatism, but it reaches a point where it just doesn't even seem like he was trying), but he had a son who he seemed to genuinely care for, and overall conducted Cobra in a somewhat-business like way, only disposing of his minions when there was no other options, unlike Krake who would kill them at the drop of a hat.
@Clown-Face: What Mediawatcher said. The main continuity's version of the Commander goes through so many different writers that he'll be a seemingly remorseless sociopath for a few issues, then caring for his dead brother the next few.
edited 15th Jul '16 11:03:22 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!- Ambar, Thanos WILL be the Big Bad (and yet already seems to have more screentime).
Commander (the only thing that happens to him is "poof"??? 
). That's what, 4 entries from the comics now?

The issue is, if it's still a factor that makes him not a complete monster, it still counts, unless that factor blatantly isn't relevant. The amount of screentime isn't as relevant as whether that scene redeems him or not. And I'm of the opinion that it stops him from being a CM.
Shadow?