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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#64001: Jul 15th 2016 at 2:10:09 PM

[tup] to Skullbuster, the Man from Bodie, Halloween, and Wong Chu (despite what his name reminds me of).

[tdown] to Caleb Warrens, Edwidge Owens, Thief King Bakura, and Leon Rom.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64002: Jul 15th 2016 at 2:31:52 PM

[up][up] Hey, questionable morals is right this thread is about! [lol][lol]
I'm sure I could find it.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#64003: Jul 15th 2016 at 2:55:44 PM

Changing my [tup] for Owens to a [tdown]

Warrens, from what I hear, still [tup] albeit tenative.

[tup] Halloween

[tup] Wong Chu

edited 15th Jul '16 2:56:33 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#64004: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:00:31 PM

[tup] Wong Chu. Gotta love those Starter Villains bolted to a certain time period and the subsequent and not always successful attempts to un-bolt them.

edited 15th Jul '16 3:00:37 PM by HamburgerTime

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#64006: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:20:34 PM

I'm still not sure about providing a link to the site (no one has requested it), but I will say that I watched the beginning again, and, while he does tell Owens (Lighty was right, it was him), that it's not his fault and he doesn't need to apologize, in the same scene, when someone asks what they should do about Roan, Warren gets mad at him and yells "We do whatever it FUCKING takes!"

jjj
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64007: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:30:30 PM

That's because he's stressed out that Roan is literally one point behind his chosen candidate in the polls. He doesn't pull a rope and drop the offender into an acid pit.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64008: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:35:48 PM

Is that his ONLY decent moment in the film? Because if it is, I'm wondering if that should just be brushed off as "half-assed moment of decency".

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#64009: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:38:50 PM

He has, being generous, three minutes of actual screentime.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64010: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:48:07 PM

[up][up][up] Not "pull(ing) a rope and drop(ping) the offender into an acid pit" doesn't equal Benevolent Boss though.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#64011: Jul 15th 2016 at 3:51:13 PM

Yeah, but consoling a colleague because of a screw-up doesn't hurt that impression either. Also, God damn, only three minutes of screen time for the big bad who institutes the Purge? What a waste of a character.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#64012: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:01:15 PM

[up] You ain't kidding about that. For an example (seemingly) of a Greater-Scope Villain turning into a Big Bad done right, look at Thanos (or, in a reverse way, Palpatine).

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64013: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:12:32 PM

edited 15th Jul '16 4:53:56 PM by Mediawatcher

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#64014: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:29:55 PM

[up][up]Thanos hasn't even been Big Bad of a film yet. What are you on about?

[up]Stop. It.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#64015: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:33:50 PM

[tdown] Thief King Bakura, easily. Might seem strange seeing as Dark Bakura qualifies, but he's the Thief King's former soul overridden by Zorc the Dark One's soul and has thus become his own entity - more Zorc than Bakura, and he even ends up controlling his past self with zero qualms. He's also the most evil person spawned from Zorc, which is why he qualifies whereas Zorc the Dark One, the Dark Priest, and the Thief King do not.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64016: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:34:41 PM

[up][up][up]Honestly, I'm really starting to get the impression you're asking questions JUST for the sake of asking questions, Mediawatcher.

edited 15th Jul '16 4:34:50 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#64017: Jul 15th 2016 at 4:41:33 PM

[up] Same goes for futuremoviewriter.

Speaking of, that question they asked about Frollo's kid? Yeah, Descendants has ZERO bearing on the original canon - it would affect NOTHING. (We're talking about a setting where stuff like Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and Beauty and the Beast, clear old world fairy tales, exist in the same universe and time period as 101 Dalmatians and The Princess and the Frogs, which were set in worlds that had already invented automobiles, and features social media and new technology from none of those works' actual time periods! It's begging to not be taken the least bit seriously!)

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64018: Jul 15th 2016 at 5:23:35 PM

[up][up] I'm not gonna deny that, Alright no more questions, just this: [tup] Wong chu and Halloween

edited 15th Jul '16 5:24:16 PM by Mediawatcher

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64019: Jul 15th 2016 at 5:36:30 PM

Also, there's one villain on Batman that I'd like to discuss.

  • Batwoman: Maro purposely drowned the children of Maria, the woman who would go on to kill herself and become the Weeping Woman, because his magic relies on the power of belief. Because people believe in the legend of the Weeping Woman, Maro intended to use that to keep Maria from passing on after she inevitably killed herself and transformed her into the urban legend, and she would go on to steal and/or kill more children.

Is this in the same universe as mainstream Batman? If it is, it doesn't sound like he holds up against, say, Joker or Mr. Zsasz, or even non-Monsters like Ra's al Ghul.

edited 15th Jul '16 5:45:03 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#64020: Jul 15th 2016 at 5:55:32 PM

[up] Maro is from the New 52 universe, which has a different heinious standard then the Post Crisis universe. Though I think DC rebooted again with Rebirth, so beats me what counts and what doesn't.

edited 15th Jul '16 5:55:56 PM by Overlord

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#64021: Jul 15th 2016 at 5:56:44 PM

[up][up] I don't read marvel or dc, but the universes are just so random it's very difficult to really determine a standard for them

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#64022: Jul 15th 2016 at 6:16:22 PM

Some late 'Yes' votes for the Man, Halloween, and Wong Chu.

Definite 'No' to Owens, but I'mma just go with 'Abstain' on Warrens as it seems a bit ambiguous if he's truly a Benevolent Boss.

Anywho, I have one last (For now) candidate from G.I. Joe. He's the man you've all been waiting for (Well, I have been, at least), the boss himself, Cobra Commander.

Who is he?

The Second Cobra Commander (Real name <sort of> Krake) is the Big Bad of the second half of the the G.I. Joe (IDW) comic storyline. I will refer to him as Krake until the point where he becomes the Commander, at whivh point I will refer to him as such.

Born in an unnamed, war-torn, asian country, Krake spent his childhood working in the fields with his mother to gather marijuana and such for the drug lords who force the population to work for them, and in return, prvide them with food and shelter.

Now, one day when Krake is a young teen, a couple of thugs grab and (I'm guessing) plan to rape Krake's mother, but he shows up and kills all of them, but his mother is caught in the crossfire.

With the drug lords discovering the slaughter, they promote Krake to a soldier, and thus, his rampage begins....

What has he done?

Working as a soldier for a couple of decades, Krake becomes known and feared as a cruel and ruthless man, killing anyone who crosses him and showing fierce determination and badass-ery, even taking down a helicopter with a single shot....from a rifle.

After becoming a mercenary, Krake continues his jolly job of killing, and, in one notable instance, when he learned one of his 3 partners might be leaking info, he executes all three of them in a matter of seconds.

Having no loyalty to anyone but himself, Krake would sometimes murder his own employers and take all their funds once his job them was done.

Eventually approached by the terrorist organization Cobra for a job, Krake turned down the offer, stating he refused to be under the thumb of anyone or any organization.

However, he ends up joining anyway after reconsidering, and, after tying up (Read: Killing) numerous loose ends, he joins the outfit.

Undergoing facial reconstruction (STOLE CHIMERA'S SCHTICK!), Krake murders the doctor and nurse who performed the op and made it look like a murder/suicide.

Krake spent the next several years as one of the top assassins in Cobra, and at one point leads an assault on a large village, killing numerous people and trying to massacre the entire population.

When the current Cobra Commander is shot and killed (Long story), the Cobra High Council organize a "contest" to see who can kill the most enemy G.I. Joes, and whoever wins will be the next Cobra Commander.

Krake takes the opportunity to murder numerous Joes, and makes attempts on his fellow competitors' lives as well.

Eventually, due to some truly Machiavellian scheming, Krake becomes the new Commander. Of course, it is only then that he shows everyone what a demented, egomanical lunatic he is.

Now, in this universe, Cobra is a shadowy organization who hide their activities from the public as much as possible. The new Commander......doesn't share this sentiment.

The Commander's first order as new leader is to launch a full-on siege of the entire country of Nanzhao, slaughtering hundreds of people in the subsequent carnage on the outskiurts of the country, even people being forced to work as slaves for drug lords.

Taking over much of the outside of the country, the Commander orders all citizens of every major cities in the country to evacuate, then has his troops raid the now-abandoned cities, stealing as much profitable items as possible.

As for the evacuees, the Commander let's a couple thousand escape the country to cause chaos in the neighboring countries (And also giving Serpentor, a Cobra cult leader who recruits people into the Cobra fold, some new servantz), then orders his troops to wantonly open fire on any civilians in their sights.

The Commander then straight up nukes half-a-dozen (Abandoned) major cities, reducing most of the country to a radioactive wasteland.

Following this, the Commander has the entirety of the Cobra high council sadistically murdered, leaving only himself as the leader, and has any current prisoners of Cobra (Or soldiers he deems "weak") executed.

The Commander later takes over an entire city in Ohia, first killing off the major leaders of the place through such savory means as immolation and feeding them to crocodiles then lures the Joes into a trap after convincing the citizens that Cobra is on their side.

The citizens attack the Joes while the Commander orders the entire city annihilated, a crime he plans to pin on the Joes. The plan....halfway succeeds, with part of the city destroyed, but modt of the citizens survive.

Cobra eventually convinces the public that it is (Mostly) a philanthropic organization (Long story that makes sense in context).

The Commander has many slave camps worldwide, where adults and children alike are kidnapped and forced to work until death, with any resisters brutally murdered.

Having no care for any of his troops or special agents (The Baroness, Destro, etc.), the Commander regularly personally guns them down or has them executed for any form of failure.

At one point, the Commander learns of a possible leak in his organization, and has a group of soldiers open fire on an airport full of people to try to kill the mole to disguse it as a terrorist attack.

When the mole survives, the Commander has Error 404 (Yes, that's one of his operatives names) try to use an EMP to cause an entire plane to crash in the middle of Paris in an attempt on the mole's life.

After a highly-persuasive woman's child son is kidnapped, she approaches the Commander to rescue her son in exhange for spreading word-of-mouth that Cobra is extremely dangerous to the criminal underworld, without letting the general punblic hear it.

The Commander saves her son.....then captures the boy himself to force her to continue working for him, and transports the boy to a child soldier training camp where he is brainwashed into becoming a freaking sociopath. Yes, the Commander has a base to brainwash and indoctrinate children into becoming sociopathic soldiers.

Then, the story skips to 5 years in the future and the Commander is....gone. Poof. Nothing. I'm not sure if he's dead or something, but there's a new leader of Cobra, and the Commander is barely mentioned again (Darn varying writers).

Throughout the story, the Commander kills (Whether personally or through orders) so many people I can't even try to list it, and has so many extra crimes I can't even remember some of them, but regardless, these are his worst ones.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

No redeeming features. He's a psychopath who cares about no one but himself and has no sense of honor or loyalty.

As for excuses, he kind of has one, but I don't think for one second it's a very good one, and frankly, neither does the story.

He grew up in a war-torn country, had to work in fields to keep himself fed and a roof over his head, and watched his mother die. Kind of a crummy childhood....if he ever acknowledged it as one.

He's actually appreciative for his childhood, as it showed him that only the strong survive.

Though, oddly enough, he never references his past in the actual story. There's a one-shot that tells of his past as a child and, later, a mercenary, but he himself never even mentions it in the present.

Oh, and that mother he watched die? He showed no sadness over it. He literally went "Mother?", checked to see if she was dead, then walked off without another glance. He tried to help her beforehand, sure, but how much could he have actually cared for her if he just decides she's dead and walks off?

So, while his childhood was pretty crummy, by the time he was a teen, he had fully embraced it and became part of the very reason his childhood was so crappy. So yeah, not redeeming in my book.

Heinousness?

Easily the worst in-story by a country mile. No one else comes to the level of mass cruelty and wickedness he has under his belt, and while Chimera's plan was pretty jacked up, the Commander has way more crimes under his belt that are plenty as bad as Chimera's.

Final Verdcit?

Personally, he's an easy keeper. But, I suppose could see someone thinking his childhood is too disqualifying, so I guess he's gonna be a debatable one.

edited 15th Jul '16 6:25:19 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#64023: Jul 15th 2016 at 6:36:49 PM

[tup]Cobra Commander.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64024: Jul 15th 2016 at 6:45:57 PM

[tup] Krake. Out of curiosity, what happened to the first Cobra Commander?

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#64025: Jul 15th 2016 at 6:46:24 PM

Even if Warrens isn't a Benevolent Boss I would argue having only three minutes of screen-time in an hour and fourty -five minute movie doesn't make him stand out as far as having a character even if he is the one who caused The Purge.

edited 15th Jul '16 6:47:51 PM by username2527


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