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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#63576: Jul 10th 2016 at 10:25:49 AM

So, the Darkness series is a six book fantasy series by Harry Turtledove. It features a continent spanning fantasy war heavily modeled on WWII. The nation of Algarve is Nazi Germany, the (very Aryan looking) Kaunians are the Jews, magic wands take the place of guns, and dragons and behemoths serve for tanks and aeroplanes, etc. One of the major combatants is the nation of Unkerlant, a colossal nation that acts as the analogue for USSR/Russia. At their head is half-mad King Swemmel, the series' Josef Stalin analogue.

Who is King Swemmel? What has he done?

Swemmel was one of the twin sons of the previous King of Unkerlant. When his father died, Swemmel and his brother Kyot each refused to admit the other was the elder, and went to war over who should succeed their father to the throne (it's worth noting here that while it's ever stated explicitly, the series strongly implies that Kyot had the better claim given that most of the nobility backed him). The Twinkings War split the country in half and nearly wrecked Unkerlant. After Swemmel won he purged the nobility and the army of those who had supported Kyot, had almost a whole generation of officers beheaded, and had Kyot boiled alive in a giant brass cauldron. This all takes place before the story began, but the events are repeatedly described and in enough detail that they can be taken into consideration.

When King Mezentio (Hitler) of Algarve invades Forthweg (Poland), Swemmel allies with Mezentio and invades Forthweg himself, occupying half of it. He also invades his desert neighbour, Zuwayza, which was an Unkerlanter province in his father's day. The invasion goes poorly, and the officers responsible for it find themselves executed. Swemmel is also planning to doublecross Mezentio and invade Algarve when the Algarvian king beats him to the punch and invades Unkerlant.

The war goes very badly, and Swemmel begins resorting to ever more desperate tactics. He gives an order that any man who retreats and any officer who gives an order to retreat without express orders from the king is to be executed, and has his military impressors line up at the back of each army formation with instructions to shoot anybody who does run. When some units break anyway Swemmel responds with mass executions, killing not only those who ran, but entire units of their comrades. This horrifies and disgusts his chief general, Marshal Rathar, but Swemmel cannot be dissuaded.

Partway through the war, the Algarvians discover that by sacrificing people they can further empower their spells. They start bringing Kaunian captives to the front lines and sacrificing them by the dozen and the hundred in order to create Holocaust-empowered super-spells that devastate the Unkerlanter lines. Swemmel is furious...that his generals and mages didn't think of it first, and orders Rathar and his archmage proceed to do the same over their strenuous objections. When Rathar points out they have no foreign captives to sacrifice, Swemmel starts laughing, then orders Rathar to use their own peasantry as fuel for the spells. Swemmel later declares that if the nation of Unkerlant had one throat he would behead it himself so long as the resultant spell destroyed Algarve. He later adds that so long as he has one subject left at the end of the war and Mezentio has none he will classify it as a victory.

Following the battle of Sulingen (Stalingrad) Swemmel's army begins advancing against the Algarvians. Those Algarvian soldiers whom they capture are treated not as POWs but as slave labour and are sent to mines to work away the rest of their lives. When they reach the Duchy of Grelz, a former Unkerlanter province that Mezentio had turned into a kingdom under the rule of his cousin Rainero, Swemmel has the Algarvian soldiers enslaved, but orders all Grelzan soldiers to be summarily executed. Most are shot while trying to surrender (which Swemmel is not a hundred percent happy about since he wanted them flayed or "unmanned"). When "King" Rainero is captured by Swemmel's forces and delivered to Rathar, Swemmel uses him as part of a victory parade, which begins with Unkerlanter soldiers showing off their might, and ends with Rainero being boiled alive in a cauldron the same way that Kyot was. He also may have served Rainero boiled flesh to Rathar at a dinner afterwards, though it's not clearnote .

Swemmel's soldiers eventually take all of Forthweg from Mezentio, and install their own puppet king. At Swemmel's urging they murder and rape their way across Algarve proper, eventually seizing the capital. Mezentio commits assisted suicide which enrages Swemmel who intended to, among other things, cut out his heart and eat it. At the end of the war, Swemmel is the most powerful man on the continent, and is mulling over plans to go to war with Lagoas (Britain) and Kusammo (America) in revenge for them not doing enough to assist him during the war with Algarve.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Yes. Mezentio is responsible for more deaths overall (and would count if he appeared for more than three damn scenes), but Swemmel runs him a close second, a fact that becomes all the worse when you remember that most of Swemmel's victims are his own people. On the Unkerlanter front Swemmel matches Mezentio atrocity for atrocity, with his men not only murdering their own peasants to power their spells, but castrating or enslaving Algarvian soldiers, and executing any Grelzans who try to surrender.

He's also easily the absolute worst boss in the setting. Members of the Algarvian aristocracy can get away with talking back to Mezentio; the worst thing that might happen to them is that they lose chances at promotion. Swemmel threatens to kill anyone who talks back to him, and at one point has to be dissuaded from ordering the beheadings of the Lagoan and Kusamman ambassadors for refusing to swallow the Unkerlanter party line.

Pass.

Any redeeming qualities?

When Rathar salutes him at the victory parade he returns it.

Seriously, that's about it. Swemmel has his good days and his bad according to those close to him, like Rathar, and he can be complimentary and generous when you've done a good job...but that won't stop him from beheading you or boiling you ten seconds later if you disappoint him. He's a rule-through-fear narcissist and paranoid with no close friends, no surviving family, no spouse, and no one else whom he cares about. Rathar is the closest thing he has to a friend, and he still threatens to have Rathar executed at least once per conversation.

Pass.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

Not that we hear about. It's made clear that Swemmel's father was a much better man than he was and would never have countenanced what Swemmel did in the Twinkings War or the war against Algarve. While Swemmel is obviously unhinged, constantly ranting about how there are "traitors everywhere" his paranoia doesn't explain or excuse his sadism towards those he has beaten—you don't need to boil a man alive to be safe from traitors after all.

Pass.

Final verdict?

King Swemmel is easily the worst or second worst person in the setting, depending on what you want to use as your measuring stick. He's without a doubt the worst boss in the setting, and his entire nation lives in quaking terror of him (something that's reflected every time a POV character from another country has to deal with Unkerlanter officials). He's also the most sadistic character bar none, and even if he didn't kill quite as many people as Mezentio, his intentions to start another war against Kusammo and Lagoas as soon as he's strong enough mean that he fully intends to top his Algarvian nemesis in the future. He's void of redeeming feature or Freudian Excuse, and cares about no one but himself—as Rathar remarks on several occasions, so far as Swemmel is concerned he is Unkerlant and the rest of the nation simply an extension of his will.

I say he qualifies. What say we all?

edited 10th Jul '16 10:26:09 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63578: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:01:24 AM

[tup] Swemmel. So he's a Karma Houdini? Also, is lack of screentime (pagetime?) the only reason Mezentio doesn't count?
[down] I don't do it with "neatly every entry."
[down] Shit, is it really that bad? sad

edited 10th Jul '16 11:51:22 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#63579: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:14:25 AM

[tup] Swemmel Do you have to keep doing this with nearly every entry? It's the chief reason I'm nowhere near as big on posting examples as I used to be.

Like do you not understand how annoying this is even after it's been pointed out to you multiple times?

[up] Yes, you do. Tons of responses are constantly "Is it this" and "what about this" ...it's exhausting to have to deal with. If Ambar feels the Hitler stand-in qualifies, he'd say so.

[up] Yes. It really is. It's been pointed out a lot of times now. I'm not saying it for fun.

edited 10th Jul '16 12:21:36 PM by Lightysnake

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#63580: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:15:54 AM

[up][up] Just as Uncle Joe was one IRL.

Also, being familiar with this work, I must say that Mezentio was presented as more brave and honour-bound than his real life counterpart. That and he simply doesn't get enough page time, so he doesn't really qualify IMO.

Swemmel definitely does though [tup]

edited 10th Jul '16 11:16:19 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63581: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:36:01 AM

[tup]Swemmel.

Why so serious?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#63582: Jul 10th 2016 at 12:15:28 PM

Also, is lack of screentime (pagetime?) the only reason Mezentio doesn't count?

If there were other reasons, don't you think I'd list them? I said that he only shows up in three chapters and does not have enough screentime to qualify. If there were other reasons, why wouldn't I list them?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#63583: Jul 10th 2016 at 12:39:09 PM

[tup] Tiptree, [tup] Swemmel.

So Euron x Cersei x Littlefinger? Hmm. That'd be interesting.

Those are the last three human antagonists standing, so it's a given that they'll be in competition with each other's agendas before the Night's King makes his move and we move towards the Grand Finale.

I will say though, at this point in the show, I doubt Euron will end up being a CM. Maybe a villain we Love to Hate, but right now (in the show, I still haven't read the books he's in yet) he doesn't strike me as one.

Agreed. With Ramsay, Littlefinger, and Night's King being active villains around this time period, he has a lot of competition and a hard time standing out in heinousness compared to them like his book counterpart is able to do. I think he'll be more on Cersei's level when all is said and done.

edited 10th Jul '16 12:42:31 PM by ANewMan

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#63584: Jul 10th 2016 at 12:59:37 PM

While I agree that TV Cersei doesn't count, is it even clear that she clears the heinous standard yet? Both Joffrey and the Mad King seem to have comparable resources to her and strike me as being more heinous, with the caveat that I'm not an expert on the show (and obviously there's still time for Cersei to become more heinous).

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63585: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:03:45 PM

[up] How many people died when she set off the Wildfire? Incidentally, Show!Mad King isn't a CM (or if he is, hasn't been given an entry).

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#63586: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:05:27 PM

No, he isn't, because he only appears in a flashback for literally five seconds.

And she killed, at least hundreds in the Sept's explosion. At least.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#63587: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:44:25 PM

Yes to Swemmel and Cassandra. I think Tiptree's gotten enough votes.

Carnosaur: Dr. Jane Tiptree is an amoral geneticist seeking to eradicate humanity to return Earth to a series of artificially-engineered dinosaurs. Tiptree, believing humanity to be a "disaster," creates a virus to forcibly impregnate human females with raptors, causing them to give birth to the specimens in a painful and eventually fatal manner. This virus is unleashed on her own subordinates, the surrounding countryside, and eventually herself, with the ultimate goal of this to kill off every human female and starve out the rest of the male population. Tiptree's experiments in breeding raptors lead to one of her specimens prematurely breaking loose and going on a rampage in which dozens are killed, and Tiptree coldly has the father of someone who's daughter was killed by her creations killed off by a tyrannosaur. Though Tiptree is soft-spoken and amicable, ultimately, she's little more than an omnicidal misanthrope who seeks to wipe out mankind based on her own delusions.

edited 10th Jul '16 1:57:59 PM by Scraggle

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#63588: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:46:20 PM

[tup] swemmel [tup] tip tree

These guys have the weirdest names

edited 10th Jul '16 1:46:46 PM by Mediawatcher

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#63589: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:50:32 PM

[tup] to Dr. Jane Tiptree, Cassandra, and King Swemmel.

On the topic of Game of Thrones: I doubt Cersei will ever truly be a CM, but stranger things have happened. Euron's worth watching, as well (the book version is definitely on his way to joining the hallowed company of Joffrey, Aerys, Ramsay, and Rorge). The show's version of Aerys, while about as decent and charming a fellow as he was in the books, can't really be qualified due to his lack of appearances and the results of his crimes going mostly unseen. On a marginally related note, I really want those last two books.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#63590: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:17:53 PM

[up] she might count, I mean she crossed blew up the building killing off hundreds, I think cersei is slowly getting closer to monster territory. Pretty much crossing the meh pretty damn fast.

edited 10th Jul '16 2:18:20 PM by Mediawatcher

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#63591: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:25:11 PM

So, while people mull over His Royal Majesty, King Swemmel, I have another villain to propose from the same series.

Who is the interrogator? What has he done?

The interrogator is a low-level prison official in Jelgava, one of the nations that the Algarvians overran. Despite his apparent lack of a name he's not a minor character—he gets lots of characterization and screentime, he just refuses to let any of his prisoners learn his name.

We first meet the interrogator when Talsu son of Taku, one of the POV characters is arrested by the Algarvian secret police. Talsu had approached Kugu the Silversmith in the hopes of becoming involved in the Jelgavan resistance that aims to oust the Algarvians and their puppets and restore the exiled King Donalitu. Unfortunately Kugu is an Algarvian collaborator who turned Talsu into the interrogator. The interrogator—who already knows that Talsu acted alone, since Kugu has told him as much—proceeds to have Talsu tortured for the names of the others involved in his conspiracy against Algarve, names he knows Talsu cannot give since the conspiracy consisted only of Talsu and Kugu. Talsu, refusing to give him a list of innocent people to arrest, is tortured further when he refuses to talk.

Eventually the interrogator tries a different tack—leaving Talsu to starve for a month. He then brings Talsu to his table, where he had a seven or eight course feast placed in front of him. He allows Talsu to take one bite, then bars him from eating anymore while he himself feasts in front of the starving man. He continues to demand that Talsu give him the names of those who conspired against the Algarvian occupiers—names that, once again, he knows don't exist. Talsu again, refuses, and is thrown back in prison to be starved and tortured.

The interrogator finally gets Talsu to talk by arresting his wife and torturing her. She gives the names of "conspirators" to save Talsu, while he gives names to spare her. All the people on their lists, most of whom are, of course, innocent, are arrested and tortured for further information. Talsu is released but with instructions that he must continue to report any traitors he overhears to Kugu, who in turn, will report to the interrogator. When he doesn't find enough traitors he is threatened with prison and torture again. Finally, Talsu has enough, curses Kugu (in the literal, magical sense) and runs off to successfully join the actual resistance against Algarve. They win out, and the Algarvians are expelled from their land and King Donalitu is welcomed back. Sounds good thus far, right?

Until the interrogator, promoted from captain to major by King Donalitu for his "loyal service" shows up on Talsu's doorstep and has him arrested for, wait for it, "conspiring with known collaborator Kugu the Silversmith to prevent the return of our beloved King Donalitu." When Talsu protests that he only worked with Kugu on the interrogator's behalf—and that he, unlike the interrogator actually played a role in having Donalitu returned to the throne—the interrogator (who likes to brag about a man with his set of talents is indispensable no matter who is in charge) dismisses these facts as irrelevant, condemns Talsu as a "vile whoreson traitor" and has him thrown back in jail to be tortured again. Talsu is eventually freed on request of Donalitu's Kusaaman allies, much to the fury of the interrogator who rails to Talsu's face about he is treacherous piece of garbage who can never be trusted to serve His Majesty faithfully. He has Talsu exiled from Jelgava; the last thing we see him do is try to force Talsu to sign a paper attesting to the interrogator's good treatment of him (Talsu laughs in his face and leaves while the interrogator continues to denounce him a traitor).

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

There's no shortage of vile, low-level characters in this story, from Coniche who poisons her war-hero husband to try and hide the fact that an Algarvian soldier got her pregnant behind his back, through war criminal and murderer Sidroc who beat his cousin to death with a chair, to war criminal and serial rapist Spinello.

That said, there's something special about the interrogator. He's a non-entity in the grand scheme of the war, yet he pulls out all the stops when it comes to making Talsu's life a living hell. Torturing a man until he hands over innocent people for you to execute is bad enough, but to come back and arrest him again after a regime change for the crimes that you yourself made him commit, is uniquely awful.

Redeeming qualities?

The interrogator would tell you that the skill with which he performs his job is a redeeming quality. He would tell you that he is a loyal servant of the state who performs his task regardless of who is in charge. He would say he was Just Following Orders and is therefore guilty of no crimes; that it is his task to ferret out treason regardless of who it is committed against.

And he would be absolutely full of shit to do so. Dedication to your job is not a redeeming quality, and arresting a man for crimes against a king you forced him to betray at gunpoint is utter hypocrisy no matter how the interrogator wants to spin it. Arresting willing collaborators after the war would be one thing, but Talsu had no intention of collaborating with Algarve until the interrogator forced him to do so, a fact which the interrogator acknowledges right before arresting him anyway. He knows full well Talsu would never have worked against Donalitu if he hadn't forced him to, yet condemns him as an untrustworthy snake anyway, all while viewing himself as totally innocent of any wrongdoing as it was "just his job."

I should note here that the interrogator is not lying to protect himself, or trying to rationalize his own actions, or anything of the sort—the story makes it very clear that this is honestly how he sees the world. Anything he does in the name of his job is fine and should be forgiven when the administration changes, anything he tortures someone else into doing is heinous treason and must be punished when the administration changes. That's a whole lot of things, but redeeming isn't one of them.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

None. Some of what I've described here might sound like the actions of a man trying to get in good with the returned regime and save his own skin, but they're not. As the interrogator repeatedly reminds us, he served Donalitu when he was king, he served the Algarvians when they were in charge, and now that Donalitu is back he anticipates returning to his service with nary a problem, because a man with his particular skillset is too invaluable for any king to get rid of. He's in no danger, he doesn't believe himself to be in any danger, and yet he still does what he does to Talsu out of "loyalty" to his job.

I suppose one could argue that his worldview, with all its built-in contradictions and hypocrisies is mad in and of itself, but he's not legally insane.

Final verdict?

The interrogator is the worst of the series' low-level villains. He's a near emotionless Torture Technician who prides himself on doing good work, and is devoid of redeeming feature. He goes out of his way to ruin Talsu's life, and has numerous other people tortured and executed along the way.

Thoughts?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#63592: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:28:54 PM

[tup]Swemmel. I haven't read that series in a long time (mostly due to getting sick of Turtledove's obsession with refighting World War II), but I distinctly remember that, while he was weirdly enjoyable to watch, he was also totally awful.

I don't remember this other guy at all, though.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63593: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:30:02 PM

Interrogator's got a fucked-up worldview. I'm ALMOST tempted to say that, insane or not, his worldview's too screwed up for him to count, but I'll give a VERY slight [tup]

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#63594: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:36:52 PM

[tup] Sweemel and the interrogator.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63595: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:48:09 PM

[tup]Interrogator.

Why so serious?
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#63596: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:56:59 PM

[tup] to Smith, Ge Qian Hu, The Convenience Store Killer, Dr. Tiptree, Cassandra, King Swemmel, and The interrogator.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63597: Jul 10th 2016 at 2:58:58 PM

Honestly, while I'm giving a yes to the interrogator, from the way you described it, it almost seems if it had been better if he was fucking with Tatsu simply For the Evulz.
[down] I'm giving my opinion. Chill dude.

edited 10th Jul '16 3:22:15 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#63598: Jul 10th 2016 at 3:08:13 PM

[up] Why is this relevant? Why does everything need this?

Yes to the Interrogator.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63599: Jul 10th 2016 at 3:21:22 PM

Yes to Cassandra, too.

Why so serious?

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