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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63551: Jul 10th 2016 at 1:16:13 AM

"Think Josef Stalin as played by Aerys II and you'll be on the right track."
Welp. He sounds pleasant.


[nja] Oh yeah, it's been 2 weeks. Lesson learned from the last 2 eps of season 6? Don't fuck with the Stark sisters evil grinevil grinevil grin

edited 10th Jul '16 1:48:09 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#63552: Jul 10th 2016 at 4:19:44 AM

Speaking off, am I the only one who likes that Euron gets relegated to Big Bad Wannabe status despite the hype around him ?

Anyways, now this isn't a serious proposal, but I noticed that after the finale, people where talking about how Cersei Lannister gave up her redeeming qualities. While I agree she jumped off a slippery slope (instigating an assassination to kill her enemies and secure power for herself, killing hundreds of civilians in the process, having a woman raped by Cleganstien, while the whole gloating about how evil she likes being evil and not even blinking when her son commits suicide), I just wanna know if we should consider discussing her or at the very least put her on the wait and see list.

edited 10th Jul '16 8:57:33 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63553: Jul 10th 2016 at 4:31:42 AM

Well, she's probably worth watching, if for no other reason than all the other CMs are either dead or, in Gregor's case, zombified.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63554: Jul 10th 2016 at 5:13:59 AM

[tup]Jane Tiptree.

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#63556: Jul 10th 2016 at 5:30:47 AM

Cersei certainly seemed like Tommen's death didn't affect her as much as Joffrey's (which shows how fucked up she is), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that she dropped all her redeeming qualities, given that she still ordered Pycelle to bury him alongside his family.

imO, she is still a no-no.

edited 10th Jul '16 5:31:18 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#63557: Jul 10th 2016 at 5:49:27 AM

[up] She crossed the Moral Event Horizon in that episode, but not a CM.

"she's created an artificial virus which infects human females and then makes them give birth to dinosaurs."

Scraggle, you are the last person I thought would propose a candidate from a movie like this. [lol]

Uh, [tup] Tiptree, I guess. Giving birth to dinosaurs. WTF? XD

Since you mentioned a CM who targets females, I may as well go ahead and do an effortpost on Cassandra from BattleTanx, another character who specifically targeted females with a Gendercide virus. Before I get to Cassandra, let me discuss the plot for the first game briefly.

BattleTanx takes place early in 2001, while the world is dealing with a deadly virus that is killing off all of the women. As the virus spreads, some women are placed in quarantine. Riots break out. Civil wars start. Nuclear weapons are launched at different countries. Long story short, the world tears itself apart in the span of a few months. The main protagonist, Griffin Spade, is stuck in New York City after it had recently been nuked, and he's determined to get his wife, Madison, back from San Francisco. Only problem is that in the aftermath of all this chaos, several gangs formed amidst the rubble, and said gangs now rule the country in their own specially-designed tanks (or Tanx). Griffin fights through all the gangs, builds his own army, rescues his wife, and the game ends with Griffin ready to rebuild society.

BattleTanx: Global Assault takes place five years after all this. Griffin and Madison have their own son, their army has thrived, and they managed to make a decent society together.

And then Cassandra comes along.

Who Is She?

Cassandra is a Queen Lord and the leader of a network of gangs spanning all over America and Europe. She also possesses a special psychic power known as the "Edge," which is capable of brainwashing or hypnotizing others to follow her or do what she wants. After Cassandra discovers that Griffin and Madison both possess this same power, she starts spying on the family and becomes obsessed with their son, Brandon.

What Has She Done?

After discovering Brandon, Cassandra launces an attack at an airport in San Francisco, ordering her troops to slaughter anyone in their path except Brandon. When Griffin and Madison repel Cassandra's troops, she uses the Edge to brainwash Griffin's army against them, and the couple are forced to leave the city. While battling a gang in Texas, Griffin and Madison find out that Cassandra was using the gang to transport civilians to a fortress for genetic testing involving the Edge. After Griffin and Madison uncover more data about Cassandra, they head to the heart of Washington D.C. to try and stop her. Unfortunately, Cassandra uses the Edge to brainwash Brandon into following her, and she kidnaps him and flees to Europe.

From this point onwards, Griffin and Madison reign hell upon Cassandra's European forces, tearing through various gangs just to get their son back. After rescuing some scientists and eradicating a large chunk of Cassandra's gang, the couple finds out that Cassandra is the one who created and unleashed the plague that wiped out almost all of humanity. She did so in order to discover which human beings also possessed the Edge powers; anyone who didn't have the Edge perished. After Griffin and Madison reclaim their son, they attempt to head back to America, where Cassandra's forces try to stop them. They fail once again, and the Spade family returns to San Francisco. Having lost her prize, Cassandra sends her final gang to attack the Spades, no longer caring if Brandon dies during the assault. And once again, Cassandra fails.

Knowing she's lost, Cassandra uses her powers to brainwash Brandon one last time, and she commands him to "burn the whole world." Griffin and Madison use their Edge powers, however, to break Brandon out of Cassandra's grip, and he returns to normal. With nowhere left to go, Cassandra is cornered at her base on Alcatraz. Griffin and Madison take down what's left of her gang, destroy the Tanx she's piloting, and save the world. However, just when it seems like their troubles are over, a strange magician finds Cassandra's body and raises her from the dead!

And then 3DO goes bankrupt. No sequel for us.

Freudian Excuse?

No.

Redeeming Qualities?

Also no.

Is She Heinous By the Series Standard?

She's the only "tribe" leader who manages to establish an entire empire across the globe. In the first game, there wasn't really a Big Bad. It was more or less "Griffin encounters two or three hostile gangs. He kicks their asses. Rinse, repeat." until he found Madison. Even the Dark Angels, who were the ones holding Madison prisoner and were somewhat of an Arch-Enemy to Griffin, had no leader and felt no different from the other gangs you run into. Cassandra is the only enemy who is not only the leader of her own gang, but also controls at least half a dozen other gangs, most likely from her Edge powers. She doesn't seem to care about any of them though; they're just warriors to her.

To top all this off, she's the reason why the world was turned into a wasteland to begin with. By unleashing the virus, she inevitably started a Civil War and a Nuclear War, and by the time it was over, at least 80% of America's population was gone, and there's no telling what happened across the rest of the world—the death toll probably reached the billions.

Final Verdict?

She seems like a go, but as always I'm curious to see what others think. For those wondering, yes, the game's plot is...minimal. But it is there. The game occasionally takes a break to show you some cutscenes before letting you get back into the action. And while the cutscenes are short, they do give enough information to comprehend what's happening. Hell, I wrote up this entire effortpost based almost entirely on playing the N64 versions of the game.

edited 10th Jul '16 6:00:05 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#63558: Jul 10th 2016 at 5:56:17 AM

Euron was definitely the Big Bad Wannabe of season 6 and I really hope that from season 7 onwards they start to develop his character to be the ominous threat that he is in the books (it would be awesome if his lips would turn bluer during the rest of the series for drinking Shade of the Evening, also the truth behind his "smiling eye" is yet uncertain in the novels). What we've seen so far is a somewhat ordinary-looking, overconfident jerkass who really needs more than 1000 ships and a "big cock" to get Dany at her side. And considering the fact that she already made a deal with Theon and Yara, Euron needs a trump card (no pun intended) that would reduce Dany to a state where she is forced to side with him (enter the Dragon Horn?).

Considering the fact that there's only 13 episodes left and he's only seen briefly in 2 episodes, I'm really starting to get worried on Show!Euron. They really have to hurry on developing his character whether they intend to make him the next Ramsay, otherwise he ends up being a big joke. It would really disappoint the fans if he ended up being a condensed version of his book counterpart, given that he is one of the most anticipated characters in the series. Season 6 better have given us a false impression.

The actor himself has dropped a few hints that "there's no one like Euron" and seemingly implied that he might use magic to slow his aging (he's still the oldest of Balon's younger brothers I assume) and has found some highly useful relics during many of his journeys. The Kingsmoot didn't show anything of him other than his manipulating skills. So much speculation, yet so few actual certainties. To me, the anticipation of the upcoming season 7 and The Winds of Winter is more stressful than the season 6 cliffhanger of The Walking Dead.

PS: Anyone else wondering where Euron's whole crew of mutes where the whole time during the Kingsmoot?

edited 10th Jul '16 6:22:12 AM by Kookosbanaani

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63559: Jul 10th 2016 at 6:33:24 AM

[tup] Cassandra if she has enough of a personality.
Oh, and fuck 3DO going bankrupt; the 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse game seemed AWESOME sadsadsad

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#63560: Jul 10th 2016 at 6:41:09 AM

[up] It's not that she doesn't have a personality. It's that it's kinda cliché. She seemed like a modern-day witch with the power to control all those around her. The PS 1 version of the game has animated cutscenes and voice-acting in it, and she seems to display more of a personality there (and sadly I cannot find any PS 1 cutscenes of the game in English outside of the intro one). Even then, I'm not entirely sure if that would disqualify her, considering she wiped out most of the population with a virus, and we do see the result of what she does (wrecked buildings everywhere, a post-nuclear New York City, etc).

[down] Noted.

edited 10th Jul '16 7:17:06 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#63561: Jul 10th 2016 at 6:59:18 AM

Reminder to wait until the 24th for any discussion of the latest Red Vs Blue episode.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#63563: Jul 10th 2016 at 7:10:16 AM

[up] There are cutscenes, but the cutscenes in question are either gameplay footage with text at the bottom showing what a character's saying, or a few comic book-like images shown onscreen containing, again, text at the bottom. The PS 1 version has actual animation and voice acting in it.

It is weird though since the N64 version of The World Is Not Enough has in-game cutscenes with animation and voice acting, as well as the PS 1 version. I'm assuming, like The World Is Not Enough, the PS 1 version is shit and the N64 version (which I own) is better. tongue

edited 10th Jul '16 7:12:50 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63564: Jul 10th 2016 at 7:18:56 AM

And it's not like the N64 can't handle voices (It's a' me, Mario!).

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#63565: Jul 10th 2016 at 8:54:02 AM

On Euron Greyjoy, my issue with the show's version is that he's utterly generic and unconvincing as a Big Bad Wannabe, Book!Euron is absolutely someone who would be the Big Bad in another fantasy series, with him and Aegon Targaryen playing out a sort of "Chosen One Boy Who Lived VS Dark Lord" narrative, which is what makes the inevitable subversion so brilliant. With Show!Euron, I think it might be too late to develop him into a major villain in the next 13 episodes because they've made him so irrelevant and spent more time beefing up the role of Super Ramsay Sue instead.

Cersei Lannister will always be a [tdown] for me. Even in the books where she has even less redeeming qualities, she's painted as a Tragic Villain. It'd be like calling Lady Macbeth a CM - she's a twisted, horrible bitch, but not a CM.

Plus, her order to give Tommen a burial is a good case of genuine Even Evil Has Loved Ones versus what Ramsay displayed for Myranda in the season premiere (the whole "she was so special and precious to me and I'm sad that she's gone" speech before going "No, don't bury her - my dogs need fresh meat." Who does that to their loved ones?)

edited 10th Jul '16 8:59:02 AM by ANewMan

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#63566: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:03:21 AM

[up] If he becomes a non-threat, then why bother introducing him at all? They could've easily cut him since there are tons of other characters adapted out in the TV series. I believe they're going to make him at least somewhat relevant to the plot, but one can only hope that they somehow make up his lack of presence and character development in this season. 13 episodes remaining is almost a certainty at this point since it was confirmed but this wouldn't be the first time the fans have been mislead. Again, I'm not sure at all what direction Show!Euron is going and it doesn't look promising enough at this point, but not all hope is lost yet.

Also, it's worth mentioning how Vargo Hoat's character was renamed in the series as Locke simply because his lisp was removed and he was serving Lord Bolton right from the beginning. So calling Euron Greyjoy with the same name as his book counterpart means that there should be more similarities than Vargo and Locke.

[down][down] Euron should've been introduced back in season 5 but instead, they increased Ramsay's sadism way too much, all the way to Villain Sue. It annoys me afterwards how they tried too hard to make Ramsay a "cool" villain but could've just downplayed his viciousness and saved the rest for Euron.

edited 10th Jul '16 9:38:19 AM by Kookosbanaani

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#63568: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:31:16 AM

[up][up] "If he becomes a non-threat, then why bother introducing him at all?"

Because he's a walking plot point, like Rickon. I had hopes for Show!Euron too. He had a great introduction and he killed Balon Greyjoy, whom we all disliked. But then after that, he proclaims himself the new ruler of the Iron Islands, and......

Yeah. I don't think he did much else. He existed to give Theon and Yara a reason to leave the Iron Islands and to meet up with Daenerys. Now I'm hoping that in Season 7 (and 8?) that he does become more plot-relevant and doesn't get the Rickon treatment. Because I was waiting three whole seasons wondering what happened to Rickon, and then they killed him off for very little reason.

edited 10th Jul '16 9:31:29 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#63570: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:41:06 AM

I'm still betting Euron's Big Bad Wannabe treatment will continue next season, along with the other surviving major villains, especially with the looming threat of the Night's King on the horizon (I also love how pretty much the whole North now knows and accepts the existence of the White Walkers at point blank like that) - pretty much every surviving antagonist that's not the Nights King is in way over their heads. Only possible way I can see Euron being a real threat is if he teams up with another major villain.

edited 10th Jul '16 9:41:51 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#63571: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:42:51 AM

[tup] to Tiptree. While she does seem to believe in her cause, dooming humanity to extinction in such a brutal manner is pretty bad. Plus replacing billions of people with carnivorous dinosaurs would most likely cause even more damage to the ecosystem, since now there's billions of predators in enviroments that have not evolved to properly deal with them.

I've actually seen all three Carnosaur movies, and the first is by far the darkest. The second is the best one to watch in a So Bad, It's Good sense, since it just rips-off the plot of Aliens beat-for-beat.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#63572: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:44:27 AM

[up][up] So Euron x Cersei x Littlefinger? Hmm. That'd be interesting.

I will say though, at this point in the show, I doubt Euron will end up being a CM. Maybe a villain we Love to Hate, but right now (in the show, I still haven't read the books he's in yet) he doesn't strike me as one.

[down] That's a good point. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

edited 10th Jul '16 9:55:38 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#63573: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:48:31 AM

[up] Show!Euron becoming a CM is not an impossibility. Whereas kinslaying was one of Ramsay's final acts and he clearly had mixed feelings towards it (although quickly overcome by it), Euron's first act was to murder his own brother and he did it without any hesitation whatsoever. 13 episodes is a short time but Karl Tanner only needed two and a half episodes to be labeled as a CM.

Also, [tdown] to both versions of Cersei: the TV version has way too much character development to count. She starts off as a caring mother who, after Myrcella's death, realizes that all her children are doomed and accepts that despite loving them to the end. The book counterpart was a tragic individual and even though her love for her children was more like an embodiment of her narcissism, she was also a POV, unlike the CM's in that series.

edited 10th Jul '16 9:54:15 AM by Kookosbanaani

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63574: Jul 10th 2016 at 9:57:35 AM

[up] And hell, Craster appeared in just 5 eps.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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