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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63501: Jul 9th 2016 at 7:35:29 AM

I'd say if it's an adaptation (ala Anime!Bluebeard) they can get their own separate write-ups, being different versions of the character.

edited 9th Jul '16 7:36:16 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#63502: Jul 9th 2016 at 7:38:02 AM

The only problem is that they're pretty much the same character. The only difference between the two doesn't seem to be enough to warrant creating another writeup on the character.

edited 9th Jul '16 7:44:54 AM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63503: Jul 9th 2016 at 8:10:14 AM

Yeah. I mean, if they're significantly different (like, say Book!Ramsay vs. Show!Ramsay; or the comic vs. film versions of Clown/Violator), then having separate entries makes sense. If they're similar (like Coraline's Other Mother vs. the movie; or Zaroff; or Napoleion), then...probably not. How different IS Anime!Bluebeard from the original?

edited 9th Jul '16 8:10:24 AM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63504: Jul 9th 2016 at 8:18:27 AM

You cannot use that argument for Bluebeard. That story is just one episode in an entire series based on fairy tales. It's an animated anthology series, with its own page and YMMV page. It's essentially a different universe from the original fairy tale, just basing itself off of it.

edited 9th Jul '16 8:23:49 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63505: Jul 9th 2016 at 8:54:58 AM

[up] Alright, Anime!Bluebeard stays.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#63506: Jul 9th 2016 at 8:58:42 AM

RE: Napoleon

One thing that needs to change with that write-up—get rid of the expy comment. There's a separate clean-up going on with that trope. Stalin is not a fictional character, and Napoleon is therefore not an expy of him.

@emperors

Quality is irrelevant. The book came first. If the adaptation doesn't change any of Napoleon's crimes it doesn't need a separate write-up, regardless of how good it is.

You want to debate quality, go write a review of the film.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63507: Jul 9th 2016 at 9:19:22 AM

[up] Hmm, that's true. How's this? Napoleon, the Big Bad of this Beast Fable on the Russian Revolution, represents Josef Stalin.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#63508: Jul 9th 2016 at 9:41:39 AM

With animated Napoleon, he actually succeeded in killing Snowball while in the book, Snowball was just chased off. But other than that, with nearly all of the crimes being shared, and how the beginning and the end of animated napoleon's entry just feel like watered down version of his book counterpart's entry, I'd say the animated entry isn't really necessary.

Also emperors, you're objectively wrong for saying that the film is better than the book, and you should feel ashamed of yourself.

[down]

I was being playful with that last bit. Sorry if I came off as being serious.

edited 9th Jul '16 10:03:55 AM by Awesomekid42

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#63509: Jul 9th 2016 at 9:45:38 AM

Let's not go into a debate about which is better.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#63510: Jul 9th 2016 at 10:29:03 AM

I have 7-0 on The Convenience Store Killer. Any more votes? Otherwise, I will start the write-up.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#63511: Jul 9th 2016 at 10:48:26 AM

@emperors: And once again you're acting based on your bias. Stop.

I'm for simply merging Zarroff and Napoleon's writeups. There's not an enormous amount of point to them having separate writeups if the difference is all of one crime.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#63512: Jul 9th 2016 at 11:13:53 AM

I think Count Zaroff is different enough from General Zaroff. Aside from the thing with Eve (who didn't exist in the original story), there'd him locking his "guests" in his trophy room to break them. I also don't believe that he deliberately shipwrecked people in the original, it was just a happy accident for him.

jjj
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#63513: Jul 9th 2016 at 11:33:12 AM

Hey guys, it's been a while and I missed a lot. I have a few comments/suggestions in regards to the quotes page. ACW, for the quotes here, I was the one who originally added the quote about Anton Chigurh. While you do make a fair point, I could still see the quote staying since is does reflect him having no humanity, but I won't lose sleep if it goes.

Also, I noticed that there were often complaints about the quote page discussions bogging down the thread. If people feel that way, maybe there should be a separate thread to deal with it.

Lastly, I personally don't think the quote page should be locked over the actions of one troper. I think that, once the bad quotes are purged, we could simply leave a commented out message saying to make sure a quote actually reflects the trope before adding it.

BTW, I noticed that Michael Myers in 4-6 timeline had to be cut due to issues in the 5th and 6th movies. That's a shame, because in Halloween 4, he's still portrayed as a pure evil human being like the original films. It's too bad 5 and 6 had to wreck that, but alas, that's the way it is.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#63514: Jul 9th 2016 at 11:43:34 AM

Fair points.

[down] TV Rulez Again. Your points are pretty valid as well.

edited 9th Jul '16 11:57:41 AM by AustinDR

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#63515: Jul 9th 2016 at 11:45:54 AM

[up] Is that referring to me, TV Rulez Again, or both of us?

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63516: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:06:41 PM

  • Hmm, you may have a point about Zaroff. Is Napoleon a cut though?
  • I see where you're coming from with the quote on Anton, but it seems more appropriate for here.
  • As for locking it, I could go either way. Worst comes to worst, I could always do a look-through every now and then.
  • Incidentally, as for bogging it down, we should be done with it Tuesday.

edited 9th Jul '16 12:10:10 PM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#63517: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:17:04 PM

I've got a new proposed qoute from Ramsay Bolton, from this season. I could share it now or tomorrow when the two weeks rule is up.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63518: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:17:53 PM

I THINK you could probably do it now, since Ramsay's last ep was over 2 weeks ago. And if you mean the "Red Letter" that's here? Yeah, that's a good one.

edited 9th Jul '16 12:20:10 PM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#63519: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:24:58 PM

[up] Yeah, that's the one.

edited 9th Jul '16 12:32:52 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63520: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:42:54 PM

On a different subject, I was wondering if this image of Bluebeard could be used for Literature. I don't know, the current image just looks... off. That, or maybe it could be resized and have a caption added.

Why so serious?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#63521: Jul 9th 2016 at 12:53:46 PM

[up]

Eh. I can tell that he's planning on murdering a woman, but it doesn't scream monstrous to me.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#63522: Jul 9th 2016 at 1:53:58 PM

Phi Sat, the Wayfarer trio may wait until next week, because I have a question. I found this at The Wayfarer Redemption:

  • Jerk with a Heart of Gold: One could argue that WolfStar is this, despite the fact that he's a manipulative ass and all of the horrific stuff he's done and all of the death he's responsible for during the series, he does have a heart and seems to genuinely love his daughter Azhure and grandson Caelum and did everything he could to save Tencendor.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#63523: Jul 9th 2016 at 1:55:00 PM

How's this look?

  • Cornered: Morty is by day a friendly delivery man, and by night The Convenience Store Killer who as his name implies breaks into convenience stores after hours, gruesomely murders the workers and takes off with the surveillance tapes. He's caught on footage having done this to numerous workers already. Hearing how the people at Steve's liquor store said they would kill him, he decides to make them his next victims, on his way to the shop he kills a homeless man named Jacko by slicing him in half. When he reaches the store he proceeds to break Mona's skull, stab her eyes out with ice cream cones and stuff her body in the freezer. Moving on to Jimmy, he stabs him to death with a broken ketchup bottle, and bisects the store owner, Steve with a meat slicer. Donny having rewinded the footage in the store's surveillance room realizes the CSK is Morty. Morty ultimately ends up slicing Jess's head off when Donny tries to help her after which Donny tries to trick Morty leading into a fight that ends with Morty ramming donuts down Donny's throat until he suffocated.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#63524: Jul 9th 2016 at 2:06:48 PM

Personally, I love the image of Rawhead Rex for the Literature page, though a caption wouldn't hurt.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#63525: Jul 9th 2016 at 2:16:46 PM

[up]Agreed.

Why so serious?

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