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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#62251: Jun 24th 2016 at 9:37:07 AM

[tdown] on Frost. He not only seems to believe in what he's doing, but he gets a bit of an Alas, Poor Villain moment when Stevens captures him and outs him.

Quick question: when the version of Luthor from the Ultimate Edition is discussed, will it be right when the movie comes out on Blu Ray or will it be two weeks after that?

Also, Scott Dunn still needs to be resolved. Only 2 [tup]s and someone who said no.

My two cents on Littlefinger: yes, everyone who died is on him and it was just so he can eventually take over, but he truly cared about Catelyn and he didn't consider how people would die while Ramsay and Frey went out of their way to be as vicious as possible and that does matter. It wasn't personal to Littlefinger (one of his few personal victims, Lysa, was an Asshole Victim), it was personal to Frey though and Ramsay just didn't give a shit as long as it was fun. That I think makes the difference.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#62252: Jun 24th 2016 at 9:39:47 AM

I don't think Luthor needs to be discussed again, even if it is the Ultimate Edition version. Also, what are Scott Dunn's actions?

Why so serious?
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#62253: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:24:00 AM

When Gul'dan inevitably added to the Warcraft page, the most obvious edit is just to put his film incarnation at the bottom of the page and move on. My suggestion, although, is that since there are three separate versions of him that count, we can do a listing of his main, Wo D, and film versions and put them under a header.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#62254: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:25:04 AM

[tup] Gul'dan

edited 24th Jun '16 10:25:34 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#62255: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:54:24 AM

On the subject of Gul'dan, there is a prequel novel in the same continuity as the movie which reveals that Gul'dan also murdered Durotan's father Garad. Gul'dan had met Garad to convince him to let his clan join the Horde. Garad declined the offer, so Gul'dan secretly poisoned him so he could try again with Durotan.

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#62256: Jun 24th 2016 at 11:02:56 AM

[tup] Gul'dan

On a side note, what are some of the most amusing examples of a non-CM being revolted by a CM?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#62257: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:22:26 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Please refer to both 60994 on page 2440 and 61027 on page 2442 for more on Dunn.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#62258: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:37:09 PM

[tup] to Gul'dan.

As for amusing moments, well I remember in the The Musketeers at one point Rochefort murders a priest who overheard him and the Spanish Ambassador talking. While pretty grim its also weirdly amusing. The priest assures them he won't tell, Rochefort then says "I know you won't" and stabs him to death, he then turns back to the Ambassador whose giving him a look that just says "okay I'm working with a mad man."

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#62259: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:46:09 PM

[tup] to Gul'dan (as if there was any debate). Speaking of Gul'dan, I did found a good image of him that would really work well with the Warcraft's CM subpage. Is there a good thread to showcase it?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#62260: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:49:53 PM

@futuremoviewriter: We're not seriously discussing Littlefinger anymore, but I will point out that it's hard to mark his care for Catelyn as a mitigating quality since he'd long since stopped caring about her as a person and more as a prize or possession that he puts on a pedestal above all other women (and he's been in the company of a lot of women as part of his business), and that lust fueled and motivated his villainy rather that mitigate it. And Asshole Victim or not, murdering Lysa like he did was just cold.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#62262: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:00:03 PM

[up][up][up]What's the image?

Why so serious?
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#62263: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:31:46 PM

[up] It's an image of movie Gul'dan sucking the life out of a poor human as he talks to Orgrim Doomhammer about Fel power and how you are either be feared or fuel in Gul'dan world order.

It's this image source here.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#62264: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:34:35 PM

What's the minimum amount of monsters needed for something to have its own page?

edited 24th Jun '16 2:34:46 PM by Mediawatcher

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#62267: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:45:27 PM

[up][up] 5 actually. See Rurouni Kenshin, When They Cry, and Mega Man.
EDIT: [nja] by bobg.

edited 24th Jun '16 2:45:43 PM by ACW

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#62268: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:50:30 PM

[up] Really? Both Teen Wolf and Stargate have Five candidates and neither of them have a page. I was sure their was a conversation a while back to raise the number, due to a concern of proposing to many pages for some reason or other.

edited 24th Jun '16 2:54:17 PM by MGD107

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#62269: Jun 24th 2016 at 2:53:55 PM

Well, it has to have at least 5; I've been told that there doesn't HAVE to be a page. I actually have Teen Wolf on my to-do list for eventual pages (along with Daredevil and possibly DC Universe Animated originals). I'd prefer it that way rather than increasing it; otherwise we'd (well, maybe just me tongue ) would get concerned about merging.

edited 24th Jun '16 2:54:44 PM by ACW

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#62270: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:02:38 PM

I'm still wondering if the daredevil series on Netflix will get a monster. Although admittedly the mcu aren't exactly experts when it comes to making monsters or even really villains for all that matter.tongue

edited 24th Jun '16 3:06:44 PM by Mediawatcher

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#62271: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:16:17 PM

Yeah, while I love the MCU (movies anyway; I haven't seen either Agents or the Netflix shows), their villains are probably their weakest point.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#62272: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:21:16 PM

[up][up][up] Okay, I understand.

[up] Yeah I agree, its strange their earlier villains were better than the later ones.

edited 24th Jun '16 3:25:09 PM by MGD107

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#62273: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:28:04 PM

Speaking of Teen Wolf, judging by last seasons cliffhanger and some reports, the next villain is gonna be a former nazi.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#62274: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:32:42 PM

'Yes' to Guldan.

As for MCU villains, I'd say they more than make up for their....lacking....film villains (Barring Loki, Ultron, and Zemo) with their TV series villains, which are arguably some of the best Live-Action supervillains ever put on any screen, be it film or TV. Kilgrave in particular is easily on par with, if not better than IMO, The Dark Knight's Joker.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#62275: Jun 24th 2016 at 3:58:42 PM

[tup] to King Tor and Gul'dan (Warcraft (2016) seems like a fun movie; not great, perhaps, but something enjoyable that you can watch while munching on popcorn. I'd like to watch it sometime).

The only MCU Big Bad I felt was a total misfire was Malekith. What ticked me off with him is that he had lots of potential (a king who lost his kingdom, a family man who lost his family, on top of his awesome design and the fact that they got the amazing Christopher Eccleston to play him), but was pushed aside and wound up a Generic Doomsday Villain. Kurse was more interesting, despite having even less characterisation.

Anyway, even the less than stellar MCU villains are at least somewhat interesting or entertaining. Ronan, in particular, is pretty one-note and is only a character trait or two away from being a Generic Doomsday Villain, but he plays that one-note beautifully. I loved his Large Ham tendencies and intimidating presence. Lee Pace really made the most of that performance. And, of course, there's Loki, Fisk, Kilgrave, Ultron, and Zemo, who are among the best villains I've seen in any medium.

I do find it interesting that the MCU seems to suffer from the opposite problem to a lot of genre works (instead of Vanilla Protagonist and Rooting for the Empire, they have Vanilla Antagonists and Rooting for the Rebellion. Freaky.).

The only word I have to say on Littlefinger's love for Catelyn is this: his feelings used to be genuine, but the passing of time and his own issues twisted it into Loving a Shadow, with Sansa taking over as the shadow after Cat died. In my mind, it doesn't offer a redeeming quality.

edited 24th Jun '16 4:02:34 PM by DeCarta


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