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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#62151: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:20:59 PM

[up] To the drafts too please. Looks good; short and sweet. Should we mention that comment about (not) raping Samella?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#62152: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:22:12 PM

[up]Probably not. It'll just confuse people who may end up thinking he has standards. Sent to drafts

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:23:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#62153: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:22:59 PM

[tup] Lamprey

Hey I got a question is it possible for complete monsters to have an Alas, Poor Villain moment? Im only asking this because a couples candidates that we have approved (ex. Arkamverse!Joker, Dewey Novak, Dickson) seems to have this or some shades of this.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:23:17 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#62154: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:24:08 PM

[up]For the most part, no. The characters you've listed there are exceptions because their moments weren't really about them (there's nothing sad about Dewey dying, but he is Holland's brother and thus Holland is going to mourn).

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#62155: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:39:59 PM

@ quotes: Afton's and both of Pennywise's are good, though as stated, one of them is already on the Stephen King page.

jjj
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#62156: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:05:25 PM

[up][up] So what you're saying is as long as the moment isn't about them it is possible, but other than that they can't, am I right?

edited 22nd Jun '16 5:05:56 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#62157: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:12:40 PM

'Yes' to Palatyne, Cobalt, and the Lamprey. Love me a good fantastically racist baddie.

Anywho....

  • The Alphabet Killer: The Alphabet Killer ( Richard Ledge) is the pedophilic psychopath responsible for the film's events. Having kidnapped then brutally raped and murdered a little girl, the killer became infatuated with police detective Megan Paige, and, to prove her theory that his killings were solely against children with Alliterative Names he raped and murdered two more children with the same first letter of their first and last names. When Paige discovers his identity, the killer brutally beats her before trying to drown her in a raging river. Evading capture by the film's end, the killer goes on to rape and murder numerous more little girls while leaving Paige to rot in a mental institution. Manipulatively charming and falsely kind, the Alphabet Killer was a depraved lunatic with no rhyme or reason to his atrocities beyond his own perverse entertainment.

edited 22nd Jun '16 5:13:01 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#62158: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:17:18 PM

[up][up]Correct. If we, the audience are expected to be sad, they can't count. One other character being said, that's different.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#62159: Jun 22nd 2016 at 6:12:24 PM

I'm still VERY iffy on Cobalt, but I guess I'll give him a tentative [tup]

Why so serious?
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#62160: Jun 22nd 2016 at 6:49:23 PM

How do we want to handle the two week spoiler policy on a TCG like Magic: the Gathering? Some recent developments in the Magic storyline shows that the Eldritch Abomination Eldrazi Titans are capable of sadism, and thus they may not be disqualified due to Blue-and-Orange Morality anymore. I only bring this up because the upcoming expansion will see the return of Emrakul. They may very well be worth discussing.

Edit: After some searching, it appears they have never actually been discussed before.

edited 22nd Jun '16 6:51:10 PM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#62161: Jun 22nd 2016 at 6:51:23 PM

Well glad I got that out of the way now then I've looked at a science fiction thriller film Source Code, which stars Jake Gyllenhaal as a U.S. Army captain who is sent into a computed reality to find a bomber, and if you guys are asking yes the candidate that I am proposing is the bomber. Well here it is.

Who is the Bomber? What does he do?

The Bomber, real name Derek Frost is the main antagonist of the film and the reason the chain of events in the film. In the main timeline, Frost was sucessful in destroying the train and Chicago the city it was going to already causing millions of death, he had left his wallet in so everyone would think he had died with everyone else on-board. Not satisfied with this he plan to make a second bomb and have it detonate with in another highly populated area causing millions of more deaths. This event was the reason why government started the source code project in the first place to find Derek Frost and stop him from detonating his second bomb.

Freudian Excuse

When asked by the protagonist on why he would do such thing his response was simply, "The world is Hell. We have a chance to start over in the rubble. But first, there has to be rubble." so basically his excuse was pretty much as justifiable as Not Important from Video Game/Hatred. That is pretty much it.

Redeeming Qualities

None. While he claims that by destroying the world he world be destroying hell, it is clear he is only using that to continue to commit his atrocities without remorse. This also goes for the alternate timelines where would do the same thing over and over again and could only be stopped if he was arrested or killed. Also if he had succeeded in his second bombing it is clear he would have continued on until there was nothing left to destroy.

Heinoussness

He destroyed a train and an entire city causing millions of deaths if not more and was about to do the same thing again if he hadn't gotten arrested, and while in one timeline the protagonist was able to stop him it is clear that if he hadn't he would have continued with his plan so yes, I think he counts.

Final Verdict

I'd give him a [tup]. what about you guys?

[down][down] It is more like he wants to destroy the world because he hates it!

edited 22nd Jun '16 8:11:13 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#62162: Jun 22nd 2016 at 7:17:27 PM

I find it wierd how the manga light yagami still counts despite having an alas poor villain moment.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#62163: Jun 22nd 2016 at 7:31:23 PM

[up][up]"thus we must turn the world into ruble."

He's turning the world into Russian money?

[up]He doesn't have an Alas, Poor Villain moment. What are you on about?

edited 22nd Jun '16 7:55:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#62164: Jun 22nd 2016 at 7:32:44 PM

Boy, I really need to stop checking in here every other day...

[tup] to Shane Bommer, Sonia Reed, Richard Ledge/The Alphabet Killer, Lord Thr'un, Quern, Altern/The One, Warlord Palatyne, Cobalt, and Lamprey.

[tdown] to Martha.

I'll get back to you on Derek Frost, but at a glance, he might be a keeper.

Much as I'd love to add something insightful about those many pages of discussion, all I've got is this: Littlefinger might be a keeper (eventually, when his arc is over and he's available for discussion), heinous standards vary by work, and this thread gets difficult to follow when there's a dip in the number of proposals.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#62165: Jun 22nd 2016 at 7:46:17 PM

Here's the exact quote: "The world is Hell. We have a chance to start over in the rubble. But first, there has to be rubble."

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#62166: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:04:21 PM

@amber I don't know the manga version was used as an example when he was whining for Ryuk to help. It's labeled as an alas poor villain moment.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#62167: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:04:39 PM

[up][up] Thanks, but still despite this claim it doesn't excuse his crimes in the slightest nor does it make him sympathetic. Its more of a Dystopia Justifies the Means quote if anything else. Also we have many approved candidates that have tried to justify their crimes, Judge Claude Frollo, Not Important, and the Erased Killer, yet their excuse just falls flat.

[up] I believe that it being so is that Kira's followers were mourning Light not the audience, like we said before so long as the moment isn't directed at the villain, it is okay.

Also I found this on Psycho-Pass about Shogo Makishima

Alas, Poor Villain: His last few moments are surprisingly pitiful, as he reflects on how easily relationships are replaced in this world and asks Shinya if someone else will take over his role in his life.

Do you want me to cut it?

edited 22nd Jun '16 8:16:41 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#62168: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:12:48 PM

[up][up]The page explicitly states that it's the anime where he gets an Alas, Poor Villain and contrasts it with the manga where he whines, pleads, and makes an ass of himself. Did you miss that?

That's of course without getting into the fact that those of us in this thread don't control what every person on the site decides to post on a given page, so something being listed as an Alas, Poor Villain moment elsewhere doesn't mean that it had our approval or that this forum views it as such.

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#62169: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:25:42 PM

May have a few nominations from the Star Trek / Babylon Five crossover, A Thin Veneer, I'll post them when I finish the reread.

edited 22nd Jun '16 8:26:17 PM by SuperSaiyaMan

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#62171: Jun 22nd 2016 at 11:52:04 PM

I'd like to add a proposal; James Gillies from Murdoch Mysteries

Who is he? James Gillies is essentially William Murdoch's nemesis in the show, and the first recurring bad guy (he'd be followed by individuals like Eva Pearce). He starts out as a murderer of the week (albeit an incredibly sick one) in the show's second season. He resurfaces in season 5 (3 years later in the show's continuity) and ups the ante, becoming Murdoch's nemesis in the process.

What did he do? The first time he and Murdoch clash he arranged the death of one of his professors (getting his weak willed boyfriend Robert to help him). He did it purely to see if the method he proposed (using a gun under a wagon and having the bullet ricochet) would work. This plan fails when Murdoch tricks Robert into thinking Gillies is trying to kill him to tie up any loose ends, causing Robert to publicly reveal everything in order to save his own skin.

Three years later, Gillies escapes prison by bribing a prison guard (who's dying of a brain tumor) into taking his place on the gallows. Once he gets out he murders Robert by cutting off his head with a saw while he's still alive. He than proceeds to taunt Murdoch by acquiring some of Thomas Edison's talking dolls, recording taunting messages; he gets Murdoch on the trail by kidnapping a small child (though he leaves her alive to relay a message to Murdoch). During this he kidnaps William's true love (Julia Ogden) and buries her alive, gloating to Murdoch that he was so set on finding him that he failed to notice. The plan fails thanks to help from Alexander Graham Bell. However, the prison wagon transporting him falls into a river. Gillies's body is never found, though the driver and guard die.

In his third appearance (the two part season 6 finale) he initiates ANOTHER attempt to fuck with Murdoch, by murdering Julia's Jerkass Husband Darcy and framing Julia for the crime (wearing a latex mask to fool witnesses, getting Julia's fingerprints on the gun). He murders the woman who could prove Julia's alibi and when Murdoch figures out a key component of Gillie's plan he rushes back to the scene of the crime and is caught in a death trap. Gillies has Murdoch in a cage and presents him with an ultimatum. He's shown Murdoch a video of EXACTLY how he pulled off the crime (showing off the latex mask) and provides Murdoch 12 hours to make a choice; a.) send the video containing Gillies's confession, which will cause poisonous monoxide to flood the room and kill Murdoch, or do nothing and let Julia die. He's basically curious to see whether Murdoch will really do anything to save the one he loves. Murdoch manages to alert the crew to his location, and they get Gillies in time to save Murdoch (who was willing to send the video even at the cost of his own life). Murdoch is freed and manages to show the film of Gillies's confession to the judge, who pardons Julia. Gillies is taken into custody, having been shot in the shoulder by Officer Crabtree.

In his final appearance, Gillies tries to arrange a breakout by spreading a rumor that $20,000 bucks will be on the train transporting him. This results in several criminals making a play, causing chaos. Gillies than has a single mother he manipulated storm in at the right moment, allowing him to take her hostage. Murdoch manages to free her without killing her but Gillies escapes. Before this he brutally taunts everyone (with Murdoch and Julia he tells them that they owe him for Murdering Julia's admittedly douchey husband, since they can be together.) After Murdoch overpowers him, he tries to escape first by kissing Murdoch (it's unknown whether it's real or not), runs and jumps into the river. While his body is found later, it's only after the brother of Julia's ex husband exploited the ambiguous situation to torment Julia, who he blamed for his brothers murder.

Mitigating Factors? The first time he busted out of prison by promising a guy money to support his family when he died, he did in fact give the guy's widow money ($3000). However one could argue that was pragmatism (since he couldn't take a chance with the widow blabbing). Other than that nothing. He spares a little girl purely so she can give Murdoch a message, tries to kill Murdoch's love interest (twice) purely to screw with Murdoch, and has committed several murders (even the ones that don't appear onscreen allow the viewer to see the grisly aftermath.) When his partner betrays him Gillies kills him in a rather gruesome manner (sawing his head off while he's still alive.)

Heinous Standard? Murdoch Mysteries is a more lighthearted detective show than most, and there are murderers who are fairly sympathetic (the Knight Templar prosecutor who is tired of seeing guilty people escape, the Native American wanting revenge on the shitheads who shot him and left him to die in the woods). Hell they even managed to have a guy who raped a child, killed his partner when confronted, and tried to frame his victim's elderly grandfather for the crime avoid falling into complete monster status by having him a.) kill his partner by accident and b.) try to save him (which causes his downfall, since Murdoch notices the laces are police issue and that the killer's boots are missing laces.)

Gillies, however, is pretty nasty by the show's standards. After the second and third of his escapades everyone treats him like a threat. Julia (a fairly tough woman) is scared of him, and Murdoch has a particular hatred for him. The ways he carries out his crimes are pretty damn nasty. Julia almost gets buried alive in the second episode; in the third he deliberately frames Julia (and it turns out he literally spent months putting his plan together), causing two episodes of one of the show's most likable character being put through the ringer. His accomplice who betrayed him gets his head sawed off while he's alive, and he has the least sympathetic motivations of any villain (Basically it's For the Evulz). Even when he dies, the possibility of him still being out there is enough to terrify Julia and William for almost half the season until they're given proof that no he really is dead.

Final Verdict? [tup].

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#62173: Jun 23rd 2016 at 4:10:11 AM

[tup] to Derek Frost and James Gilies.

NNinja from Solar system, Milky way galaxy Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#62174: Jun 23rd 2016 at 5:20:02 AM

[tup] for James Gillies. Have seen this guy and he's one nasty... guy.

[nja]

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#62175: Jun 23rd 2016 at 6:06:43 AM

[tup] James Gillies.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

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