During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Eleven, not including Littlefinger because I doubt he counts. But damn, that's a lot. O__o
Also please remember people. Two weeks.
Always remember Priscilla Allen.
Game of Thrones will be over soon, and two weeks after this coming Sunday, we can discuss whatever to our hearts' content.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:22:55 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Excuse me? Littlefinger's "love" for Catelyn being redeeming? He had her husband killed so he could try to take her for himself. That's possessiveness not love.
And again, where are you getting this garbage about him not meeting the heinous standard? He started the war. Everyone who died is on him. He is the heinous standard. Every time someone tries to claim Ramsay or Gregor or whoever is worse I'm just aghast. He has more deaths on his hands than both of them put together.
The series isn't over. We can't actually hold a discussion yet. But not meeting the heinous bar? Christ no. He is the single worst person in-series thus far.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:26:46 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
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Okay I understand we can't discuss it for two weeks, but ELEVEN! Potentially twelve more, assuming no more are still to be introduced!
How is it still possible to care about this world? Its so fundamentally broken, at this point everyone dying could be considered a happy ending.
I am of course speaking figuratively, I know why I still care. Just its hard to ignore the fact that if the actual middle ages were half as bad, we probably would have gone extinct some time in the 1600's.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:37:40 PM by MGD107
Which is why #TeamWhiteWalker became a thing. Some people want everyone to die because they're better off dead anyway. Everyone in the show is either evil or profusely broken beyond repair. Or dead already.
@HamburgerTime: No, I meant this season. They're not just gonna end the show where it is right now. This is HBO, not FOX.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:32:23 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.I half bet that's how the series is going to end, the majority of evil people will die, for once it will look like things are getting better, then the white walkers will finally arrive and everyone will die. A sort of "You wanted everyone to die, now their dead, happy?" deal.
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Nah they weren't, the Middle ages weren't a nice time to live sure. But they were a picnic compared to the Dark Ages . Really the brutality of the middle ages is nothing compared to the atrocities of the 17th and 18th centuries. And that's not even talking about the 20th century.
The negative reputation largely stems from Renaissance historians who wanted to make it clear they lived in a golden age.
This series sometimes feels like the combined terror of around five hundred years over the entire world. Compressed into three years of over one continent.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:58:04 PM by MGD107
@61858: I'd argue the show has somehow become darker than the books honestly. I saw a summation somewhere on this website saying, "The books don't cheat to let the heroes win, but the show cheats to let the villains win," and I'd mostly agree with that. The show, at least as of these last two seasons, feels much more mean-spirited with characters dying or making cruel/stupid decisions for the sake of drama as supposed to whether it made sense. And at least when characters die in the books, I got the sense that they died serving some sort of purpose. In the show it feels like the characters were "born to die," to the point where it's officially reached the status of that South Park parody. "NO! He can't die! Everybody really liked him!" Sorry for the ramble.
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Dark Ages weren't that bad
.
And as for ASOIAF vs. Berserk, they do have one thing in common.
edited 20th Jun '16 4:59:52 PM by ACW
I can't believe that you are all still really "world's horrible, I can't care anymore, go white walker go" about Game of Thrones. While this may be the case in Season 5, I feel that Game of Thrones may actually end with a relatively good, if very cynical and bittersweet note, and the satisfying death of Ramsay Bolton + Arya getting out alive + The Starks taking back their old glory only makes me more and more convinced. The source of all the bitterness(the Starks being Cosmic Plaything) is drying up. The moral might end up for ASOIAF to be "life sucks, but but if you break a few bones and abandon a few superficial moral codes you can earn your bittersweet ending". Even the Witcher 3 had a message of this sort and that setting was on par with Westeroes and Beserk for Medieval Crapsackiness setting.
Also there are stories with relatively bittersweet or even happy endings that enforces Black-and-White Morality and where much of the villains are very heinous if not outright C Ms themselves(Dean Koontz).
We should watch Littlefinger and see how this ends and if he could qualify at the end, and what his plans are for the rest of the world.
BTW, has anyone tried to bring up Frank Underwood from House of Cards? Like Littlefinger, he could hypothetically qualify at the end of his arc(and House of Cards may be ending soon or at the very least, Frank's arc could end soon and Claire could take over as the Villain Protagonist for the rest of the series). And it should be noted that unlike Littlefinger, he has a much higher case for setting the heinousness bar for his series. I'm almost finished season 1 right now and if I find he gets worse every season I might reserve the writeup.
@61872
See the problem with Theolen is that his own faction I feel has a lot of contenders for heinousness against him, even among non C Ms such as the Lich King and Kel'Thuzad. This is a faction that creates plagues, defiles entire countries and consigns people to a Fate Worse than Death.
edited 20th Jun '16 6:24:39 PM by xie323
Alright, here's a candidate for everyone.
Who is he?
Ultron is the Big Bad of the 2016 video game Lego Marvel's Avengers. Serving as an adaptation of the film Avengers: Age of Ultron, this game portrays Ultron in a far worse light than the films.
What has he done?
Coming online in the beginning of the game, Ultron shuts down JARVIS, Tony Stark's current A.I., and immediately constructs himself a body.
Ambushing the Avengers during a party, Ultron opens fire on everyone in the room, some of which are innocents.
After fleeing the scene with Loki's scepter, Ultron travels to South Africa, along with a newly recruited Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, and proceeds to make a deal with terrorist Ulysses Klaue for Vibranium. When Klaue compares Ultron to Stark, Ultron flings him across the room and plans to just take the Vibranium.
The Avengers arrive, and Ultron responds by ordering Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to hold them off, and then to drive Hulk into a rampage to attack a nearby city, endangering numerous innocents.
Ultron, having obtained the Vibranium, mind controls Helen Cho into building a new body, the Vision. However, Scarlet Witch manages to read his thoughts, and realizes he's a madman whose mind is comprised of such thoughts as chasing small animals with chainsaws.
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver turn on him, and Ultron wastes no time in trying to kill them, and sends a train careening off-track to distract the Avengers, endangering dozens of civilians.
When the Avengers stop the train, Ultron has his Ultron bots continue to attack civilians in the area, causing tons of collateral damage.
Ultron's master plan is then revealed to be to Fly the country of Sokovia up into the air, then drop it onto the Earth, which will result in global extinction.
The Avengers duel Ultron all at once, barely holding their own (In a sharp contrast to the film), and Ultron is seemingly dispatched.
Ultron survived, however, and makes one last attempt to gun down Hawkeye and an innocent pig, however Quicksilver saves them, at the cost of being covered in ice cream cones during his run.
Ultron is then destroyed when he confronts Vision one last time and tries to kill him, and the Avengers successfully save the civilians of Sokovia by evacuating them onto a helicarrier and save the world as a whole.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
NONE! Unlike his film counterpart, Ultron does not care for the Maximoffs, showing no hesitation in trying to kill them when they turn on him, and his claims of "saving" the world don't last past the first scene. After his first scene of claiming the Avengers aren't helping the world, Ultron decides to just commit genicide on the human race because he feels like it.
Heinousness?
Is the worst villain in the game, bar maybe Malekith, due to his attempted genocide of the human race.
This genocide, along with copious amounts of Mind Rape and endangering hundreds of civilians throughout the game make him surpass the minimum bar.
Other mitigating factors?
As this is a LEGO game, Ultron does have his humurous moments, such as seeming vaguely interested in a cat video, getting frustrated when he can't eat or drink food due to being a robot, and taunting the Avengers by sending them pictures of him making funny faces at them.
However, when compared to most humor throughout the games, Ultron has the least amount, and even then, almost none of it is at his expense. He's a Knight of Cerebus for LEGO games as a whole.
Final Verdict?
Easy
to THIS prick!
Before anyone asks, yes, this was basically a joke post. Though I DO make a convincing argument
.
edited 20th Jun '16 6:26:32 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!@Littlefinger: He's a vile, hebephilic, lustful, prideful, greedy, power hungry sociopath who started the whole war that's gone on in the series, so the blood of billions has got to be on his hands. This much is true. However, his rap sheet of physical, non-manipulation crimes is both relatively small and very lacking in the personal and/or extraordinarily vile and heinous evil that makes other Monsters in the setting stand out. If he gets to doing worse things before his arc ends and he ends up with no truly redeeming qualities, then he might be a keeper. If not, than he's at least a 99% Monster.
And again, where are you getting this garbage about him not meeting the heinous standard? He started the war. Everyone who died is on him. He is the heinous standard. Every time someone tries to claim Ramsay or Gregor or whoever is worse I'm just aghast. He has more deaths on his hands than both of them put together.
I think the issue here is that while his conscious choice to have Jon Arryn killed and start the great big war for his selfish ambitions got the ball rolling in terms of all the death, ruination, torture, rape and other shit that's occurred, other factors that came into play and the choices of others are what kept it rolling. All that happened as a result of Littlefinger's actions enabled the likes of Ramsay or Gregor or Joffrey to do horrible things, but Littlefinger didn't make them do any of that - they chose to of their own free will. Granted, Littlefinger likely knew they would choose to do such things and thus was aware of the obvious consequences of his actions when he committed them, so he may still count on that charge, but the point is that he doesn't have direct accountability for all events that have transpired within the war he started. Varys might have just as much culpability for some of the shady shit that has gone on, but he claims it's all for the greater good of the realm so it's somehow better when he has just as much deaths on his hands?
But not meeting the heinous bar? Christ no. He is the single worst person in-series thus far.
I disagree that he's worse than Ramsay Bolton. I cannot see how anyone could be worse than Ramsay Bolton. I appreciated how Littlefinger contributed in yesterday's episode despite knowing he has selfish intentions, that's how bad I feel Ramsay is. Stating that Littlefinger is worse on the grounds of him being behind the story's major conflict is like stating Rau le Creuset is a worse monster than Muruta Azrael since Rau was behind everything that happened in Azrael and Patrick Zala's war.
edited 20th Jun '16 6:57:55 PM by ANewMan

Littlefinger actually has Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds on his character page (Book!Littlefinger anyway).