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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#61827: Jun 20th 2016 at 12:45:22 PM

Clown-Face, you may have a point. One of those that would count in most other settings, but not in the setting they're in.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#61828: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:11:16 PM

Any thoughts on Erazor on the monster Sonic page.

Script: But when his sentence had been served, he had a renewed hatred of people. That was his fate...sad, as it was. His cursed destiny came from the story he had been written into."

This is Shahra talking about Erazor being written/fated to commit misdeeds, be punished, and then forced to grant wishes the wishes of a thousand people. Basically it implies his Moral Agency is set in stone due to being a literary character In-Universe.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#61829: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:45:42 PM

[up] Hmm...you MAY be onto something there...

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#61830: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:46:14 PM

Not sure about Theolen Krastinov. Sure, he didn't commit genocide, but there's really no way he could've. Azshara had an empire, Gul'dan a horde of warriors, Kil'Jaeden an infinite number of demons and Deathwing the most powerful weapon in existence, not to mention they were all absurdly powerful magic users.

Theolen, if I'm not wrong, was a doctor. No army of any kind, no title, no magic. Just a doctor who's responsible for his own Unit 731.

And torture to that extent? I'm not sure it really is that common place in Warcraft. We see Gul'dan testing horrible spells on prisoners, Kil'Jaeden ripping Ner'zhul's flesh, and the Forsaken doing horrible experiences as well, but that's it. And I think not even they made people survive for weeks plagues that should've killed them the first day, nor did they bring them back to life just to have them eaten alive.

And I know this isn't relevant to Theolen, but since you mentioned it, rape absolutely isn't commonplace either. We have Gul'dan (by proxy), Deathwing, Malygos and maybe Blackmoore and I think that's it.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#61831: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:49:21 PM

Well, you got a point on the rape. Still not sure about the other points, though.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#61832: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:52:16 PM

Hmm, Theolen may be another Shou Tucker type. Speaking of which, I may try to track down Fullmetal Alchemist: The Conqueror of Shamballa to see if Eckhardt counts.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:54:05 PM by ACW

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#61833: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:58:46 PM

[tdown] to Victor Kelly.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:59:33 PM by DeCarta

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#61834: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:09:19 PM

@ACW: Regarding Criminal Minds: again, that's very low compared to the other victims on the show. I haven't seen that episode in a while, but just like Pablo Vargas, he didn't really stand out much. Honestly, Vargas is probably worse than him since he raped his victims. Stanley just turned their fears against them.

I feel like you're starting to randomly pick out any villains with a kill count above ten at this point.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#61835: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:11:32 PM

Perhaps I shouldn't talk until I've finished reading/watching Durarara (especially since I've tried to avoid spoilers), but is there any particular reason Izaya Orihara has never been brought up? Maybe he's not quite as sadistic on a personal level as Ran Izumii, but when you start mob wars and goad people into suicide just because, that sets off a few bells. (I don't remember any actual redeeming qualities from his relationships with his sisters or Namie, but again, maybe I just haven't read far enough?)

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61836: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:16:23 PM

He has very clear cut redeeming qualities.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#61837: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:04:29 PM

[tdown] on the Wo W villain. And I kind of feel he is outcompeted in heinousness within his own faction

edited 20th Jun '16 3:10:04 PM by xie323

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#61838: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:06:09 PM

[up][up][up][up] Not quite random. It's more the method: not only killed, but having to spend the last minutes of your life being confronted with your worst fear? NOT a good way to go. And I'm begging you, PLEASE don't bring up Vargas; FWIW, I STILL think he counts (it wasn't the same victims BTW: ~13 rapes, then about the same number of murders of the rape victims' mothers).

edited 20th Jun '16 3:22:07 PM by ACW

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#61839: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:07:08 PM

[tdown] Victor, for his relationship with his mom and the clear Freudian Excuse.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#61840: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:32:05 PM

No to Victor.

Why so serious?
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#61841: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:32:25 PM

Well I saw last night's episode of ''Game of Thrones and without spoiling anything

[awesome]BEST EPISODE EVER[awesome]

Also I know this may be a silly question to ask but do you think the Petyr "Littlefinger" Balish might become a Complete Monster after all of this ends? He seem to have the right requirements but I'm afraid he lacks the heinous standard. The same with Euron Greyjoy.

edited 20th Jun '16 3:32:38 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#61842: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:35:56 PM

[up] I strongly doubt Littlefinger will ever become one but Euron seems on his way of becoming one.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#61843: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:39:19 PM

[up][up] Littlefinger I doubt will never become one. He's just not on the same level with the likes of, for example Ramsay and Joffrey. He also seems to have redeeming qualities too.

Show!Euron and Book!Euron are definitely going to become Complete Monsters.

edited 20th Jun '16 3:39:52 PM by Kookosbanaani

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#61844: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:39:24 PM

[up][up][up]Littlefinger started the damn war. He exceeds the heinous standard by a mile.

Euron, based on released stuff from WOW is liable to qualify.

[up]He's a child molesting creep who started a war because he didn't get laid by a girl he liked fifteen years ago. What redeeming qualities?

edited 20th Jun '16 3:40:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#61845: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:52:43 PM

[up] Well, I don't know, he just doesn't seem to be that despised among other characters in-universe.

edited 20th Jun '16 3:52:56 PM by Kookosbanaani

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61846: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:55:24 PM

Because he's a manipulative creep who always covers his tracks

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#61847: Jun 20th 2016 at 3:56:07 PM

[up][up]Which is meaningless. Villain with Good Publicity is a trope for a reason. Having a good image isn't the same as having redeeming qualities, and not being known for the crimes you've committed doesn't erase those crimes.

Littlefinger sets the heinous bar in ASOIAF. He started the war. Everyone who has died since is on him, directly or indirectly.

edited 20th Jun '16 4:00:03 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#61848: Jun 20th 2016 at 4:03:47 PM

Actually, for me Littlefinger is one of those characters where I know there's probably nothing redeemable about him, it's just hard for me to put him in this trope when he's alongside characters like Ramsay, who are so cartoonish and overtly disgusting and horrifying in their villainy. Like, I think he'd count in another story with less of a heinous standard but I just personally shuffle him under the category of "evil man doing bad things who'd I like to see die at some point."

edited 20th Jun '16 4:04:41 PM by OccasionalExister

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#61849: Jun 20th 2016 at 4:05:04 PM

Again though, Littlefinger started the damn war. Everyone who has died so far? His fault.

Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#61850: Jun 20th 2016 at 4:12:10 PM

I've read all the books and watched all the episodes so far, and for me Littlefinger is the most oddball character in the entire series. Never really understood his motives and excuses and for me he's even more enigmatic than for example Varys, which is saying a lot. Also, never really known whether his feelings for Catelyn were genuine or not.

But even so, considering the fact that the villains in Game of Thrones and ASOIAF are really bad and the overall heinous standard for Westeros is really high, Littlefinger seems to fall a bit too short.

edited 20th Jun '16 4:15:27 PM by Kookosbanaani


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