During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah I know I looked too!
As for the fictional version he was killed by Hundred Eye and blind kung fu master serving the Mongolian emperor
A fictional version of a real life figure can count right?
I'll just send the write up to the draft page for you to work on?
edited 12th Jun '16 2:19:10 AM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Very much so. Amon Goeth and Longshanks come to mind, but there's a surplus of them.
![]()
![]()
Idi Amin, Richard III, Edwin Epps, Stalin, Hitler and Goebbels, numerous versions of Jack the Ripper, Heydrich; Oda Nobunaga (two times...etc, etc, etc.
Jia will go with next week's BTW.
edited 12th Jun '16 4:28:00 AM by ACW
![]()
Yeah, but he hasn't really done all that much. Come to think of it, Ramsay hasn't either after the atrocities he committed in "Home."
edited 12th Jun '16 5:43:29 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Effort post on Hans from Fire Emblem Fates. Some spoilers ahead.
Who is he?
Hans is a violent, sadistic, and power hungry Nohrian criminal arrested by Xander years ago for acts of murder in the past. As part of his sentence, he now serves the Nohrian army. He's introduced when Garon has him accompany the Avatar (I'm referring to the main character of Fates as the Avatar), the Avatar's teacher Gunter, and the Avatar's maid Felicia or Butler Jakob on their mission to investigate a fort on the Hoshidan border.
What does he do?
On the mission, when the group runs into Hoshidans, the Avatar decides it would be best to leave since it was a simple recon mission. Hans however kills one of the Hoshidans initating a battle, rushes off ahead without the consent of the group to continue to try and kill even more, and abandons the group when he's injured enough.
But the injuries he got from the Hoshidans weren't enough to slow him down since later on, he attacks Gunter, knocking him into the bottomless canyon (the canyon is revealed to be a portal to Valla, but I highly doubt Hans knew that and just intended to kill Gunter), and attacks the Avatar as well. He tells the Avatar that he was ordered by King Garon to cause the conflict and attack the Avatar to test him/her. But seeing as how he continued to kill Hoshidans even after the conflict was initiated and ran away despite not being truly injured, it's clear that he took some self satisfaction in that as well. I also highly doubt that trying to kill Gunter, a skilled and long serving soldier of Nohr, was part of Garon's orders. And I never recall Garon confirming this in either the Birthright or the Conquest route and from what I looked up, I can't find him ever confirming this in Revelations either. When the Avatar's sword drags him/her into the canyon, Hans hightails it and runs away.
In the Birthright route, it's revealed that Hans has been promoted to a commander. He demands that the Nohrians soldiers fight each other for real, wanting to see real blood. When Hans sees the Avatar and the others, he orders his (as the Avatar notices) unskilled soldiers to attack them, telling them to throw their lives away if it means weakening the Avatar. When a soldiers shows that he doesn't want to throw away his life, Hans threatens to report him to King Garon, who'll kill the soldier's family. And when the soldier dies, Hans is just happy that the soldier weakened the Avatar. When Hans accidentally kills Lilith, who sacrificed her life to save the Avatar, Hans just calls her a stupid bird and that the next strike won't miss the Avatar.
In the Conquest route, Hans appears again to accompany the Avatar and the group to stop a rebellion going on in Cheve. However, Hans never helps the group fight against the people rebelling. Instead, Hans goes off to slaughter innocent villagers who took no part in the rebellion. He says that King Garon ordered him to do this, and unlike the Hoshidan border incident, Garon does confirm this. However, Garon also ordered to suppress the rebellion as well which Hans didn't do, so Hans clearly doesn't do his actions out of loyalty to the king. Later on in Conquest, he happily slaughters several Hoshidan prisoners who were promised to be spared when they surrendered. For that last bit he's only doing what Iago and Garon told him to do, but takes sadistic pleasure in it.
None.
Any mitigating factors?
He got angry when Leo was attacked in chapter 13 of Birthright, and tells King Garon that the Avatar slaughtered the villagers to make the Avatar look good saying that he's looking out for him/her. But really, Hans would do anything to make himself look good to royalty so that he'll be more favored and climb higher up in the ranks, so I'm taking that with a grain of salt.
There's also that the majority of his heinous actions were done because he was ordered to do it. But he primarily follows those orders because they happen to be things he wants to do, not out of actual loyalty to Garon. He shows that he's not hesitant to pull wool over Garon's eyes seeing as how he disobeyed Garon's orders to stop the rebellion, and flat out lied to Garon about the Avatar.
He might have some mitigating factors in Revelations (which I haven't played) that I don't know about, but from what I looked up on the wiki, Hans doesn't do too much in that route, and nothing redeeming comes up.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
He's outdone by Garon and the true Big Bad Anankos, who don't count since the former was possessed and the latter is a Tragic Villain. But those guys are both kings (the latter is also a giant dragon but that's besides the point) while Hans is just a prisoner forced to serve under Nohr. And he has one of the higher body-counts of the villains of Fates getting a higher body count than people like Iago or Takumi (Conquest Route) who have more authority than him.
Final Thoughts?
I'm leaning towards a
since the majority of his most heinous actions were done because he was ordered too, but I have doubts about it myself. I asked a few weeks ago if a candidate's actions are done because he's given an order by a superior would get in the way even if he takes sadistic pleasure in it
and was told it depends on the situation so I can't really make a vote for myself. What do you guys think?
edited 12th Jun '16 7:41:52 AM by Awesomekid42
So yesterday, I posted about Pathfinder on James Jacobs' question thread. Helpful link.
His response was that he considered most if not all archfiends to qualify.
He hasn't responded yet, but I countered with Dispater (who loves his wife) and Flauros (who's heavily, HEAVILY implied to be in a long-term relationship with Phengasma).
Also, about demons being conglomerations of evil souls? Uh... only balors are made of multiple souls. All other demons are a single creature; hell, sometimes one soul creates a lot of demons. Take a look at Nightripper, for instance. His whole schtick is that he kept his memories from life, even in the Abyss. Same goes for the iconic babau in Demons Revisited.
As for the archdevils? Aside from Barbatos (nobody knows exactly what he is, or if he's even a devil), the archdevils are all fallen angels; they chose to be what they are.
Yeah, I'm just glad Walder's not a Karma Houdini (Gregor could be considered one, but who knows what the hell they did to him). As for Ramsay...he doesn't really NEED to do more...killing his own father AND newborn BABY BROTHER???.
edited 12th Jun '16 7:24:05 AM by ACW
Hans really does enjoy what he does and he usually puts his own spin on it. It's pretty evident that, even without Garon's permission to commit whatever atrocity he likes, he would have been a pretty vile man regardless. On the other hand, authority that encourages shitty people tends to get a lot of them — pretty much every high-ranking character representing Nohr that isn't playable in one of the three routes seems to be pretty awful too, it's just that Hans (along with Iago) gets to be the prime representative of just how terrible Nohr's bureaucracy is. He doesn't strike me as being all that uniquely terrible of a person in his setting, just the one with enough power and enough willingness to kiss the right asses to become prominent (and the one the narrative homed in on the most). Also doesn't help that killing a bunch of civilians and being a terrible boss is what the typical Fire Emblem bandit mook boss does, it's just that Hans gets to be a recurring character who is ostensibly an "ally" in one route, so that stuff is shown in greater detail and played up.
Kinda think Iago is the best CM candidate from Fates, kinda been waiting for him to show up. He's a bit higher up the chain of command and has more blood on his hands by proximity, and he has some pretty awful personal moments.
edited 12th Jun '16 7:35:07 AM by AquaRegia
Gonna pass on Iago. I'd probably vote for him, but he just kinda strikes me as the best candidate insofar as I'd give nobody else my vote. Still a pretty poorly-written goon who mostly qualifies just because of what he does in one route as opposed to the other.
Han isn't doing it primarily for his enjoyment — it's mostly just Neidermeyer-tastic training session behavior (his only line on the subject is: "What are you idiots doing? This is a FULL CONTACT exercise! I want to see real blood! Get after it!"). Dunno if it implies to the death, but it definitely implies that he doesn't care about injuries or the occasional death in the process. Still, not that atypical for the series; non-candidates across the series like Petrine and Gheb are as irreverent towards their minions's lives as him.
edited 12th Jun '16 8:22:28 AM by AquaRegia
@Voyd 211
First off, I like James Jacobs, but his opinion is irrelevant unless he wants to come here and make a pitch himself. Anyway, to address your arguments:
Most demons will make a stop at balor before becoming a demon lord. It's the usual path of progression.
As to those who find a different route, none of them qualify so far. Nightripper is likely a pawn of Lamashtu as was discussed the first time he came up. Kostchei has a horrific backstory. The former qlippoth lords were formed of the very stuff of raw evil itself, then fed on sin to become demons. Etc, etc.
And the devils are not fallen angels in the traditional sense. Asmodeus is one of the two creator gods alongside his brother Ihys. The devils and angels are among the first things they created, with the devils being those who sided with Asmodeus during the civil war between he and Ihys. Two of them, Baalzebul and Mephistopheles are Asmodeus' sons, created by him to fill the roles they do. And of course none of them have actually done enough to qualify—save perhaps Asmodeus himself who emphatically does not qualify due to a combination of Villainous Valor, Villain Respect, Well-Intentioned Extremist and Pet the Dog.

Looks like Jia Siadao is a real person
. I might've missed it, but what happened to the fictional one?
edited 12th Jun '16 12:08:24 AM by ACW