During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I...think in Sin City 2, one has to think Roark Sr loves his son. There's a scene where he and Nancy have their confrontation and Roark confesses "Ethan wasn't Presidential material. I'd have a hard time buying him an election in an insane asylum. But he was my son. He was my son. And now he's gonna hear you scream."
Roark is a monster, and before Ethan's death, I believe he saw him as a tool to continue the family line and advance it. But after he died, it seemed to have affected him. TBH, I'm kind of surprised that proposal didn't touch on the second film where Roark shows the worst he's capable of. He's nowhere near as bad as his son or his lunatic brother in the first alone.
Though the second film just fucks continuity and basic logic all to hell. "Roark is so untouchable Hartigan has to kill himself to protect Nancy!....which is why Nancy and Marv storm his place and kill him with almost no effort whatsoever."
edited 11th Jun '16 3:12:22 PM by Lightysnake
Ah, yes Iw as.
But in the comics? No, he doesn't get near his brother (a serial killer of prostitutes who cannibalizes them) and Junior (a serial killer and pedophilic rapist with a body count in the dozens). He only covers up Junior's crimes (it's also ambiguous if he or Cardinal Roark is the true power behind the city's corruption)...he doesn't get up to much beyond framing and ruining Hartigan.
Wallenquist and Ava Lord get up to worse before breakfast.
to Senator Roake due to not meeting the heinous standard and for genuinely loving his son, even if the son in question doesn't deserve it.
Well since no one has discussed Marco Polo here allow me to explain what it is.
Whats the work?
Marco Polo is a Netflix original series about the title character traveling to China with his father and uncle, where they offer Kublai Khan, emperor of the Mongol empire, Marco in exchange for sparing them. The Khan accepts the offer and makes Marco an advisor to his court. Now Marco must adapt to this new environment and its culture in order to survive
Now to the topic at hand Introducing Jia Sado.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Jia Sidao serves as the Evil Chancellor for the Song Dynasty, an opposing empire to the Mongolians, and the Big Bad of the shows first season. Described as a cold, ruthless, and dangerously practical man he would go to many lengths to obtain what as much power as he desires. He is first introduced confronting the Song Dynasty army upon hearing rumors about them insulting his style of Kung fu, Tang Lang, the "Northern Praying Mantis" kung fu, so he has the general of the army come fourth where he uses this style of Kung fu to brutally and ruthlessly humiliate the man before killing him. He also detests sharing borders with the Mongolians so when he hears that the Song Dynasty led by Empress Dowager Xie Daoquing was preparing a peace treaty for the Mongolian he has her and those who agreed to it murdered along with killing the already dying emperor so he could easily control the next emperor and with that the empire. With the child emperor as his puppet, he has every Mongolian village near the Song Dynasty capital, Xianggang, pillaged with the people there slaughtered. He also blackmails Mei Lin, his own sister, to go to the Mongol empire to assassinate their emperor and empress, by holding her daughter hostage. When he finds out she failed to kill them he tortures her daughter by binding her feat
and threatens to kill her, if she fails once more. He also uses the black powder (gun powder) that he has been experimenting with to attack the invading Mongolians where he brutally massacres the entire army forcing the Khan to retreat. When Mongolians manage to succeed in breaching the walls Xianggang in their 2nd attempt, Sidao goes on a rampage to kill any Mongolian soldier he can and eventually getting to Marco Polo himself with the intent on killing him, but not before making him suffer.
Freudian Excuse?
Well, he lived in poverty when he was a child with him only surviving because of his sister had to do more unpleasant jobs (if you know what I mean), so she could provide for both of them. By the time he gained power, he shows know love for his sister viewing her as a worthless whore, completely forgetting that she hadn't done those things, he would have most likely died from famine and forces her to try and kill the Mongolian emperor and empress under the pretense that if she failed he would have her daughter killed and the only reason that he doesn't live up to that promise is because Mongolian spies were able to rescue her from his clutches. Basically he manages to subvert his Freudian Excuse by becoming just as, if not worse, than those power hungry tyrants that he once despised as a child.
Redeeming Qualities
By the he gets older and gains power, any redeeming qualities that he might have had as a child were all by gone. He no longer shows any love towards his sister and niece and while he seemed upset when a hooking he developed a lust for, yes I said LUST not LOVE, lied to him, he seemed more upset that he was lied to than the fact she lied to him, and when she commits suicide, he seemed to have forgotten her by the next time we see him.
Heinousness?
While show mostly revolves around people in both the Song Dynasty and Mongolian empire doing unscrupulous thing to gain or maintain power, with the Khan himself wanting to become emperor of the world, Jia Sidao was much more petty and ruthless than any other character introduced in the series, more than willing to hurt or murder his own family, men, and colleagues if they manage to annoy him or threatened his position all without batting an eye. And with the child emperors influence has people slaughtered in the hundreds if not more so in an essence, I believe he counts.
Final Verdict?
Without sounding overtly confident, I would give him a
. What about you guys?
Well The Khan destroyed one village for defying him. Jia Sidao destroyed many villages just because he doesn't like them.
edited 11th Jun '16 9:48:29 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffGoing to go no with Rourke.
Also, I just got back from watching WarCraft. I reiterate that I'll propose Gul'dan on June 24th.
Why so serious?'Yes' to Yin.
@Ambar and Monessi: Thank you both very much. I've added the recs to my to-read. I will be grateful for 1/2 of eternity.
Moving on...
"Stumbles into forum barely coherent"
I.....I did it. It was long, hard, and grueling, but I did it. I, Ravok, have finished Worm, at the cost of a couple hours of sleep, and a chunk of my sanity ('twitch'), but I did it.....dang, I need a better social life.
Moving on ('twitch'), time to propose the only candidate ('twitch') in this Crapsack World.
What's the ('twitch') work?
Worm is the story of a horrible Crapsack World where I'd have shot myself in the head before dealing with half the crap that goes on in it.
A superhero deconstruction (Thingy), Worm deals with the life of Taylor Hebert, an unattractive, unassuming, and bullied individual who has the power to.....control bugs. Yay.....
She ends up teaming up with a group of Anti Villains in an attempt to make extra money while also protect as many innocents as possible.
There are plenty of horrible villains in this universe: The Endbringers, various gangs of villains, and all that good stuff. However, there is one group that strikes terror in the hearts of all that hear of them. They are evil, they are depraved, they are....The Slaughterhouse Nine.
Who is he?
Jack Slash is what happens when you take The Joker (Specifically his Dark Knight incarnation), give him a Crapsack World to run around in, and give him leadership of 8 superpowered Serial Killers.
On to the actual character, Jack is the de facto leader of the Nine, and, with his skill of being a Manipulative Bastard, along with his superpower of stretching any blade he wields to any length he wishes, he's a bad customer.
What has he done?
After first joining the Nine, Jack bided his time and eventually murdered the current leader of the Nine, and took the position, using his naturally charming nature to cow his "teammates" into following him.
The Nine's Modus Operandi is to travel to a city, completely annihilate it and the thousands of innocents populating it for giggles, and, if said city has any superpowered individuals, Jack makes sure they are killed. If not, Jack uses them as "candiates" for the Nine.
One candidate per member of the Nine is selected. The Nine then each give each candidate a test of their own choosing, which often results in most of the candidates dying. In the end, whichever candidate is left standing, the Nine recruit to their group. Even if they have to use....forceful.....methods.
One of the best examples of this is shown when Jack finds an around seven year old girl who has extraordinary healing abilities. To "test" her, Jack butchers her parents and brother, so as to force her to heal them. Once she does, Jack butchers them again, and this goes on for hours and hours, each time the girl's powers getting weaker and weaker.
Jack eventually killed her family for real, and this was enough to cause the girl to snap, which Jack took advantage of to make her his tool and Dragon, naming her "Bonesaw".
Anywho, in Jack's first physical appearance, he is planning to cause the most pain to a rival supervillainess by murdering her teenage stepson and barely-one year old daughter in front of her, however, the teenage boy, Theo, proclaims that if he had more time, he could find and kill Jack.
Jack, loving himself some amusement and the chance to crush someone's spirits, informs Theo he has two years to grow strong enough to kill Jack. If Jack isn't dead within that time, he will personally hunt down and kill 998 people in Theo's name, then murder him and his sister (Who will then be around 3 years old). Jack then leaves on that threatening note.
Later massacring dozens of small-time crooks to make their presence known, Jack has one of the Nine, Shatterbird, use her power of screaming to shatter all glass in the entire city at once, killing dozens of people and injuring hundreds.
Jack then begins "testing" some of the local superheroes, successfully driving one of them past the Despair Event Horizon and into his service after forcing her to maim her own body.
Regularly endorsing his "companions'" crimes, Jack gives innocents to Bonesaw to be taken apart piece by piece and allows his more cannabilistic compatriots to eat people among other things.
After failing to corrupt any more supers to his side (And successfully killing dozens of more innocents), Jack has Bonesaw activate a plague that causes brain lesions in all it infects, driving them into paranoia induced rioting and murder.
Taylor manages to stop the plague before too many are hurt, and Jack and the Nine (Those still living) flee, making sure to plunge their latest recruit, who failed her mission, into a horrible Fate Worse than Death, trapping her at the bottom of the ocean to endure constant agonizing pain for the next few thousands of years (Jack has a life-extending surgery performes on her).
During all of this, it is revealed to Jack that one of the "Clairvoyant" superbeings predicted that he would be the catalyst for the end of the world. He loved this idea, obviously.
Later, to test one of his latest recruits, Jack has the Nine attack an isolated hospital, and deliberately wipes out the entire maternity war first, before killing the dozens of sickly patients, forcing the newest recruit, a former Noble Demon, to do it himself to make him more cold and cruel.
Using cryostasis and such, Jack and the rest of the still living Nine (Bar Bonesaw) go into hibernation for two years, during which time Bonesaw clones a couple hundred of them (Except Jack, because there's only ONE Jack Slash!), then awakes them.
Jack and his newly christened "Slaughterhouse Nine Thousand" travel to a local town called Killington, and massacre the population, babies and children included of course, and carve numbers into each of the civilians to mark their bodycount (The highest number scene is around 400, so yeah).
When Theo tries to confront Jack, Jack informs him he has one more week to kill him, and if he doesn't, he's going to send out all of the Nine clones into the world with the sole directive of "Kill everything in sight".
Continuing his rampage, Jack uses Gray Boy, a superbeing with the horrible power of slowing down any one person to a crawl, then leaving them in a constant loop where any pain they endure continues looping, to plunge numerous people into And I Must Scream situations for kicks, including Theo's stepmom (This process is irreversible).
Later convincing one of the few pacifistic superpowered leaders into warring against...well, all life, Jack makes a final stand at a city where he has the Nine Thousand go on a rampage, killing innocemnts by the dozen.
Theo shows up and confronts Jack, and Jack threatens his little sister, now 3 years old, with horrible suffering if he doesn't back off.
Jack loses his bargaining chip due to an...Unscrupulous Hero, and attempts to murder Theo, taunting him all the way about his weakness.
Jack is defeated when Gray Boy turns on him and freezes him in time, leaving him cursed to loop over the pain he was dealt in the fight with Theo for years to come.
However, Jack has one last ace up his sleeve in regards to his being prophesied to destroy humanity: He reaches out to the most powerful superbeing in the world, Scion, and successfully manipulates and corrupts him into trying to be like him, claiming he is the mast evolution of humanity.
To this end, Scion goes on a rampage that kills billions of people on this Earth, while also using his dimension-hopping abilities (This story gets hella weird) to jump to alternate Earths and kill people there, fully intending on wiping out all life in every universe in the multiverse.
Scion is stopped, though the death toll is heavy, and Jack is forever locked away, still trapped in his time-loop of agony.
The odd thing in this world, is that 99% superbeings have an excuse, due to their powers only manifesting when they are in extreme duress (The other 1% are those who inherit their abilities from their parents). These events where their powers activate are called "Trigger" events, and they happen at the height of one's mental anxiety.
So, yes, Jack has an excuse, and it's this (Note that none of this is in the serial itself; Word of God just informed the fandom that this was Jack's "Trigger" event).
When Jack was young , his parents were kind of psychotic survival enthusiasts, and as such, to teach their son the "horrors of war" and such, they shut him in a nuclear bunker for months with a one-way radio they used to "preach" to him, and while he was provided with everything he needed, his isolation inevitably began to get to him, "breaking" him.
When he ran out of provisions, Jack's parents let him out of the bunker....to which he realised the world was fine. No major war, no mass destruction (YET), no nothing. He found this infuriating, and, frankly, boring, after all the "teachings" his parents instilled in him, and as such, he had his "Trigger" event.
This is....fairly messed up, but honestly, it's really not one of the worse excuses in the story. Bonesaw had her parents torturously killed in front of her dozens of times, our hero endured absolutely horrible amounts of bullying and humiliation for years, and numeroius others Triggered when their families were killed in frint of them, they were abused, or their pets were nearly killed.
Jack's excuse doesn't really explain his actions, either. He was brought up to fear war and the horrors of the world......and yet, he happily nearly ends the world as a whole, and regularly leads mass-murderings of children and innocents for giggles.
Finally, this excuse is never mentioned by anyone in-story, even Jack himself. The author of the thing came out after the story was over and stated this, with a single paragraph, was his trigger event, which explains why, when he was writing the actual story, it was never mentioned.
Pass, personally.
Redeeming features?
None.
He acts like he (somewhat) cares for the rest of the Nine, but he shows no reaction but humor when they are killed, regularly takes their deaths into account with his plans, is constantly seeking to replace them with stronger supers, and, as seen in his Dragon, Bonesaw's case, terrifies the other Nine, which means something.
He also likes to make "games" that place him or the Nine on slightly less equal ground with his "prey", so as to make things interesting, but this is only because he gets bored easy, and there is never any indication that he plans to keep these "rules" in play if he starts to lose. Pass.
Heinousness?
This is a dark setting with alot of death and destruction.
The Endbringers regularly wipe out dozens of people by their mere presence, and Scion....is a whole other story.
Jack, on the other hand, is the de facto leader of the most recurring threat throughout the story, making all their crimes lead back to him, and with that in mind, him and his group have one of the highest bodycounts in the story, only being really surpassed by Eldritch Abominations and Physical Gods, making this stand out even more.
I mean, he's got one of the least threatening powers in the story (Blade extension. That's it), and yet, he stands out as almost judt as bad as giant Kaiju thingies and a Reality Warper. Yeah, easy pass.
Final Verdict?
The only thing that could give one pause regarding him is his excuse, but considering that the story never mentions it, Jack's entire character doesn't seem based around it, and it's not even THAT bad so as to cause his Omnicidal Maniac tendencies, I give him an easy 'Yes' vote.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'mma go take a nap and try to re-gather my fractured psyche. Ugh.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!![]()
![]()
![]()
Actually he does have another power which is basically the sole reason he's managed to survive as long as he did, he has a Spider-Sense that aids him in manipulating people.
edited 11th Jun '16 4:27:54 PM by doineedaname

No, I'm just saying the dub doesn't talk about moral agency like the sub does. It's just clear they have moral agency.
And fair point. Piedmon and Machinedramon honestly feel just as sadistic overall. Piedmon's only point is he respects his minions. Not that it means much, of course.
Anyway, you shouldn't let whether they decide to say yes or no alone dictate your vote. Their decision has no bearing on yours, but their points can. If most don't feel Machinedramon counts, fair enough. But I still feel he does, and their vote has no bearing on mine(but points are notable).
Apologies if I misread what you meant.
edited 11th Jun '16 3:49:58 PM by Irene
Shadow?