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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#60951: Jun 9th 2016 at 5:38:10 AM

BTW, when are we cutting the quotes from the quotes page that we decided should be cut a couple of days ago?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60952: Jun 9th 2016 at 5:43:40 AM

[up] That's on my list of pending issues.
Speaking of which, should we swap the Transformers sandbox with the main Transformers page, or are there still Unicrons that need discussing? Or should we swap anyway and take care of Unicron whenever?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#60953: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:11:54 AM

On other news, since I'm watching WarCraft soon: if Film!Gul'dan counts, would he go on WarCraft or Film?

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60954: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:17:10 AM

Since it'd be the only War Craft film, probably both.
Also, I was thinking of a possible new header for A Song of Ice and Fire:
The continent of Westeros and surrounding areas are home to hundreds of characters from all over the moral spectrum. Even in this Crapsack World, however, there are still some characters who are especially heinous.

edited 9th Jun '16 6:43:30 AM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#60955: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:19:10 AM

Also, I found this on Angel Heart.

Right below Johnny Favourite's entry are the following quotes:

Harry: Did she ever say anything about him (Favourite)?

Epiphany: Just two things.

Harry: What?

Epiphany: That Johnny Favourite was as close to true evil as she ever wanted to come.

Harry: What else?

Epiphany: That he was a terrific lover.

edited 9th Jun '16 6:19:34 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60956: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:30:31 AM

[up] Cut that. The first part's on the quote page, the second's superfluous.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#60957: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:40:18 AM

On the header, you don't need to state Monster.A Song of Ice and Fire twice.

edited 9th Jun '16 6:41:17 AM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60958: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:43:54 AM

Whoops, nice catch. That second one should be Game of Thrones; fixed now.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#60959: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:01:00 AM

I think the Transformers page should go through as it is. We still have Unicrons to cover, but no one's come out yet to do effort posts on the remaining ones. We'll just add them whenever somebody does write up the posts. For the record, we still have to do cover the Unicron from the Unicron Trilogy, the Marvel comics, the 3H comics, the GI Joe vs Transformers comic, & the Cybertron comic.

On another note, should we add a link to the Discussion Date page on the FAQ? Specifically, under the parts where it talks about recent and upcoming releases?

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#60960: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:33:52 AM

[up] Yes, that's a very good idea.

@Ravok: Funny, I was actually planning on reading Worm myself. But then I saw how long it was and I said "Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhhh......"

-looks at giant pile of stuff on my to-do list-

"No."

edited 9th Jun '16 7:34:13 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#60962: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:53:17 AM

[up] Don't remember the word count for it after it was finished but its about as long as the entirety of ASOIAF.

Edit: It's 1.7 million words long

edited 9th Jun '16 7:55:49 AM by doineedaname

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60963: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:03:34 AM

[up] If this is accurate, that's longer than all 7 Harry Potter books and all 4 LOTR (including The Hobbit) combined! surprised
Yes, that's ASOIAF length. Holy moly.

edited 9th Jun '16 8:06:20 AM by ACW

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#60964: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:07:26 AM

.....ah crap, what've I gotten myself into....

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#60965: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:16:21 AM

@ Beast: You're right—crossovers is a kind of technicality that I think we could go either way on. While at least one of those works (say the Punisher) could meet that content standard, I do have to wonder about the comedy factor in putting together such tonally different works.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#60966: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:36:32 AM

Alright, so Andy Diggle has 2[tup], 8 abstain (with one in favor to vote up) and 5[tdown], guess he is a no then, sadly.

Anarky on the other hand has 17 [tup] and only 1 abstaining vote, so I'll work on the write-up.

edited 9th Jun '16 8:36:50 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#60967: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:55:22 AM

Sorry, didn't realize the Banshee boys had gotten enough votes to qualify.

Sanchez is a famous MMA champion, charismatic and publically beloved. He's also a sadistic sociopath, seducing a waitress, deciding the sex wasn't rough, and mercilessly beating her, raping her, and assaulting her with a champagne bottle in perhaps the most violent scene in Banshee (which is saying something). It's later established that this is pretty standard behavior for him, and he usually just buys his way out of any consequences. He is absolutely remorseless and even laughs when confronted with his crimes. While Banshee is a show full of violent people, Sanchez stands out for his viciousness, pettiness, and complete and total absence of redeeming characteristics.

The Albino is a sadistic prison rapist who delights in dominating everyone around him, and seems to live only for sex and violence (frequently at the same time). He boasts about his unwilling harem, predicates his beatdowns on inflicting the most harm possible without killing his victims, and seems to find his own crimes funny.

@Lighty I feel like i didn't quite capture those as well as I'd have liked to (it's been a while since Season 1 for me) so please feel encouraged to punch them up some if the mood takes you.

I had originally considered proposing a few others, but I think they all have at least one loved one or Pet the Dog moment, so while Declan/Sharpe/Calvin/Watts may be more *evil* than Sanchez or the Albino, they aren't as technically monstrous.

edited 9th Jun '16 10:55:54 AM by Monessi

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60968: Jun 9th 2016 at 11:06:10 AM

I'll count when I have time; if the others are more evil, would that throw the heinous standard off, or are the two you have bad enough with what they have? What are Declan, Calvin, and Sharpe's disqualifying factors anyway? Watts his character page says has loved ones, but couldn't find anything on the other 3.

edited 9th Jun '16 11:21:59 AM by ACW

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#60969: Jun 9th 2016 at 11:46:04 AM

The sexual nature and excessive brutality of Sanchez and Albino's crimes are what largely separate them on the heinous front, but the other guys mentioned are more evil in other ways (bodycount, torture, psychological violence, etc.).

Sharpe is a monstrous Neo-Nazi who remorselessly beats a pregnant woman (and kicks her in the stomach, forcing a miscarriage). He's disqualified mostly because he cares about/empathizes with his Neo-Nazi cohorts.

Declan is a mass murdering serial killer who tortures his victims first, but he's in a long-term romantic (and seemingly sincere) relationship, and there's some question as to his agency as he literally believes the Devil is acting through him. He also expresses at least some reluctance to kill outside of his ritual, at least where Veronica is concerned.

Calvin is a much more prominent Neo Nazi than Sharpe, and does some awful, awful things, but is portrayed extremely sympathetically, and he clearly loves his brother, and most of the other Nazis, in his own messed up way.

Proctor, Burton, and Rabbit all have their monstrous actions but are portrayed mostly sympathetically and have several loved ones and/or Pet the Dog moments each.

edited 9th Jun '16 11:49:06 AM by Monessi

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60970: Jun 9th 2016 at 12:03:15 PM

Huh. Interesting. Lighty can add more, but it seems like Sanchez and the Albino are as bad as they can be with what they have (especially since you said rape is so rare).
Any more thoughts on my proposed heading for ASOIAF/GOT? Or on swapping Transformers now?

edited 9th Jun '16 12:05:22 PM by ACW

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60971: Jun 9th 2016 at 12:56:35 PM

I'm adding Daos to the individual YMMV pages.

Anyone mind if I add the full current version to the Drafts page?

I think his actions in Lufia The Legend Returns, making the bride homocidal, forcing the groom to kill himself, and forcing Erim to watch as the world is destroyed are heinous enough to warrant mention on the main Monster page.

edited 9th Jun '16 1:11:50 PM by Monsund

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60973: Jun 9th 2016 at 1:27:17 PM

[up]

Thank you, I'll add it to the draft page!

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60974: Jun 9th 2016 at 1:37:29 PM

[up] See if you can't trim it down by, like, AT LEAST 1/3 (or add those additional actions to the current writeup).

edited 9th Jun '16 1:38:19 PM by ACW

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60975: Jun 9th 2016 at 1:39:08 PM

[up]

Do you want me to trim down the intro, and his comparatively less heinous deeds like the parts where he kills random bystanders such as the mermaids, and the man he saved?

I just cut down some parts, tell me if you like it?

Here's the Legend returns added to the current write up here. Personally I prefer the ordered by game version. I think its too messy without the point for point style. I am open to suggestions though.

==

Daos is the god of Terror, and the leader of sibling gods known as the Sinistrals. Believing human emotions to be worthless, and not even really caring about his own siblings, Daos leads the gods to commit relentless atrocities on mankind, ostensibly to punish humans for ignoring the gods, but really for his own Sadistic amusement.. It is revealed that he has his churches sacrifice young maidens to him. When his amnesiac sister is revealed to have been living as a human, Daos mocks her desire to live as a human. In the prequel game, Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals, Daos makes his entrance by incinerating a bunch of mermaids that took refuge in his shrine. Deciding to send a message to mankind of "real terror", Daos warps Maxim and his party to the town of Chaed, then uses his Island Fortress to blow up it up, killing all the people in town, including children, leaving the Heroes alive solely so they could feel the helplessness and terror as the humans around them died. Infuriated by Maxim’s resistance to him, Daos orders the kidnapping and attempted murder of Maxim’s innocent infant son, Jeros, hoping to end Maxim’s lineage. Daos, becoming fed up with humanity’s successful resistance of him, decides to destroy the human world, leaving his remaining followers on Earth to die. When this is foiled, Daos tries to drop his Island onto a small town, taunting Maxim that his son is there. In the sequel, '’Lufia: The Legend Returns’’ Purely for his amusement, Daos crashes a wedding by casting a spell on the bride so she sees the groom and all the other attendants at the wedding as monsters. To make matters worse, Daos gives her a sword, makes her as inhumanly strong as himself, explaining the spell will only break until she or a victim is dead. This forces the Groom to kills himself to stop the bride from killing her little sister. When Erim, unable to live with the atrocities she, and the sinistral have committed, arranges for the death of herself, and the other Sinistrals, a mortally wounded Daos Summons Zalbak, a Animalistic Abomination with the last of his power. Having the Monster fuse with the wounded Erim, Daos revealing that Zalbak won’t stop until the world is covered in flames, while Erim will be Forced to Watch the World she loved be turned to ashes before she dies.

edited 9th Jun '16 1:49:34 PM by Monsund


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