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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#60776: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:37:22 AM

[tdown] Zoom. I really cannot see his interactions with Caitlin as motivated only by obsession, coupled withe the Freudian excuse.

Also The Flash must be the most confusing show on TV jfc

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#60777: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:38:17 AM

I support keeping Cinder, at least until new information comes up. I'll probably [tup]Zoom.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:38:41 AM by AustinDR

MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#60778: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:38:56 AM

I've hesitated before when I looked at his Pet the Dog moments, but De Carta's and Ravok's arguments fully convinced me that Zoom is a monster. This guy is utterly despicable, making Thawne look sane in comparison. The writers made sure to subvert every single one redeeming moment he gets shortly after.

[tup] for me.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#60779: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:39:04 AM

Personally, I'm not sure how else I can see it, judging by how he tries to murder her without batting an eye later. Two of the worst villains I can think of in recent history had similar bits (Torquemada and Kilgrave)

zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#60780: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:43:53 AM

So when do you guys think Michael Sutton will be accepted?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#60781: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:45:01 AM

I think I'll give Zoom a fairly shaky [tup].

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#60782: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:45:19 AM

[up][up][up]Because it's kinda the same situation like with Cisco and Thawne in Season 1. He does care for her/him, but would still sacrifice her/him if the situation calls for it.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:45:37 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#60783: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:48:50 AM

The situation didn't call for it in Caitlin's case. He believed she had come completely alone, defenseless, and begging for him to take her back, and he still tried to murder her with a smile on his face.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:49:16 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#60784: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:49:10 AM

And then roundly ceases to do so as far as we can see.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#60785: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:50:47 AM

[tup] Zoom, I think. Out of curiosity, would his plan kill more than Vandal's?
And why couldn't they have kept Tony Todd as Zoom? He's such an awesome villain.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#60786: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:54:17 AM

Zoom seems like a villain whom they make just human enough as to not be a two dimensional cartoonish evildoer, but those traits exist to get subverted and enhance his villainy rather than mitigate it, much like with Kilgrave. I vote [tup] for him.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#60787: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:56:59 AM

Savage's plan would have wiped out everyone on Earth who ever lived(Though they would have, eventually, came back. Unless Savage, like, murdered their ancestors or something) while Zoom's plan would have wiped the hundreds (If not thousands) of alternate Universes in existence. Zoom's attempted bodycount is in the trillions. Easily surpasses Savage.

And if it makes you feel any better, Tony Todd did stay as Zoom's voice....when the mask was on.

Oh, and I just wanna say: Poor Caitlin would probably die from shock if she had to spend a day with Kilgrave when, after a week or so with Zoom, during which time he never touched her (Sexually or violently, I mean), she acted like he had....you know, actually done something to her that was bad enough that she was having a basic version of PTSD. What the crap, lady?

edited 7th Jun '16 8:58:40 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#60788: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:08:32 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Well that's up for interpretation. He gave her a choice beforehand, to stay with him or go back to her friends and die with them. I doubt he really bought that she wanted to be with him again, especially considering how many times they layed out traps for him.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#60789: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:14:59 AM

@Cooper: Sutton's already been accepted. It usually just takes a bit for the moderators to post everything where it needs to go after the writeups are submitted.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60790: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:15:40 AM

I feel like I'm the only person who prefers season 2.

I know I'm not the only person who's sick of Fish.

You aren't. I like season 2 as much as I did season 1, and I got sick of Fish Mooney a long time ago.

[tup]Zoom.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#60793: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:41:47 AM

[tup] Zoom

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#60794: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:43:09 AM

Recap of the vote on Zoom :

Yes: De Carta, Ravok, Lightysnake, Austin DR, Me, Scraggle, ACW, A New Man, Very Melon, Demon Duckof Doom, Beast.

No: Forenperser, Largo Quagmire.

For now, it's a 11-2. Any other opinion ?

edited 7th Jun '16 9:44:29 AM by MiraiYuji

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#60795: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:44:42 AM

The write-up was posted a mere 1 and a half hours ago, I'm pretty sure that more people will comment, no need to haste ;)

edited 7th Jun '16 9:45:08 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#60796: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:58:09 AM

I usually tend to down vote villains with any potential redeeming qualities but Zoom seems like a case with Once Upon a Time Jafar. Someone who loses his redeeming qualities. Voting him up.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#60798: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:01:13 AM

I will give Zoom a [tup]. Frankly I think anything he did in regards to Caitlin didn't seem sympathetic,, I think he was trying to get into her pants and was trying to impress her, sparing a helpless Barry cost him nothing, but having a chance to get with Caitlin, no matter how unlikely was worth it and he tried to murder her after she rejected him.

To me a Complete Monster doesn't have to be devoid of all natural human emotion, humans desire companionship and indeed can go mad if left in solace for a long time, so a monster pretending to be nicer then he normally is for the sake of companionship is not unreasonable. Kilgrave tried to do things to impress Jessica, those did not disqualify him. Wanting someone to like you and doing things to impress them is not the same as actually loving someone.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#60799: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:06:22 AM

[tup] to Zoom, and quite easily in fact. I'd elaborate more, but pretty much everyone who's contributed an upvote put it far better than I ever could. tongue

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011

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