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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#60726: Jun 6th 2016 at 4:55:48 PM

[up]Having a nonsensical motive is still a motive, sadly. See Saleh from Tales of Rebirth.

Oissu!
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60727: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:01:20 PM

[up]

Reading about Saleh, it seems he enjoys what he does at least, rather then just doing it because.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#60728: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:02:42 PM

"I only use the japanese names when referring to differences in characterization. IE: Nowi is mentally adult, her counterpart in Japan, No No actually is a child by dragon, and mental standards."

Ok.

"I don't see how that line really gives him a real personality, its just generic villain talk."

How is politely welcoming your enemies and jokingly acting upset about their lack of manners generic villain talk? Even if you want to argue that it's an over done cliche, giving making a villain sarcastic with a false sense of politeness would be giving them a personality.

"Reviving Grima is a motive, but its motive that makes no sense"

This isn't about Validar being a quality villain or not. He has a motive, nonsensical or not, and he has a personality (at least in the English version). That would mean he isn't a GDV.

"How do you define difference between uninspired villain and Generic Dooms Day Villain."

An uninspired villain would be a villain that's unoriginal and mundane. A GDV is a villain with no motivations or personality. An uninspired villain can often be a GDV, but not always.

Let's for example look at the Crusader from Hatred. He was a man whose motivations were simply "fuck the world", lazily written, and was meant more as an excuse to be edgy than anything else. But he still has the personality of a sadistic, nihilistic, thrill seeker with the goal of killing as many humans as possible. He has both a goal and a personality as lazily written as he was.

edited 6th Jun '16 5:06:48 PM by Awesomekid42

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60729: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:05:31 PM

[up]

Its just part of the Cliché Storm that he makes a brief joke by being polite,

An unexplained motive, but I'll give you that.

Well how would you define Validar's personality beyond Grima's sycophantic lackey who doesn't even value his own individuality. I mean sadism is a thing, but Validar isn't even sadistic, he's just boring.

edited 6th Jun '16 5:07:43 PM by Monsund

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#60730: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:10:43 PM

[up]

Cliche or not, it still shows that he has a personality.

I'd describe Validar's personality as a cocky, sarcastic, and Faux Affably Evil religious fanatic.

You can say that he's boring, and I'd even agree with you. But being a boring uninspired villain doesn't automatically mean GDV.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60731: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:12:27 PM

[up]

So to be a generic doomsday Villain, do you need to have no lines like Doomsday from Superman?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#60732: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:17:00 PM

Ok, look, Validar is going nowhere right now. No one is even in this argument anymore besides Monsund and awesomekid, so if you two would like to continue this conversation, why not take it to PMs? Because right now, all you're doing is flooding the thread with back-and-forth posts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is getting tired of it. This is nothing against either of you, it's just easier for everyone present to take it to the PMs.

Anywho, 'Yes' to Dollmaker.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#60733: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:20:11 PM

[up] Sure thing. Sorry about that.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#60734: Jun 6th 2016 at 5:20:42 PM

I think I'll say yes to the Dollmaker.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#60736: Jun 6th 2016 at 6:12:05 PM

[tup] to Dollmaker and Strange.

Hey regarding Supergirl, I heard there was talk Indigo may count a while ago, after her debut episode. I didn't see her debut, but I did see the finale where she was trying to help Non destroy the human race.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#60737: Jun 6th 2016 at 6:16:34 PM

[tup] Dollmaker.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#60738: Jun 6th 2016 at 6:27:55 PM

[tup] Dollmaker. Abstaining on Strange till I finish the season.

[tup] on Validar. Since I didn't really vote and new information was brought up, it's fair to vote on this one.

Did I miss anybody earlier that still needed votes in the last 6 pages? Again, I have to avoid reading a lot of it due to spoilers on Gotham(for me, since my parents and I haven't finished the season).

Shadow?
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#60739: Jun 6th 2016 at 6:42:33 PM

I still think Indigo may count, but I've never done an effortpost before and I'm too lazy to make one. No one else here seemed to care, so...c'est la vie.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#60741: Jun 6th 2016 at 7:42:21 PM

Hmm, I actually did watch the first season of ''Gotham'" (though I didn't stick around for season 2), so I suppose I should probably vote on The Dollmaker. But eh...I dunno, the whole season left a bad taste in my mouth and I didn't really care about any of the characters or their actions. I'm abstaining.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#60742: Jun 6th 2016 at 8:44:50 PM

[tup] to Hugo Strange and Dr. Francis Dulmacher/Dollmaker.

I watched some of Gotham. Kind of seemed like what would happen if David Lynch and Tim Burton made a TV show together, only that description makes it sound better than it actually is.

@Tyk5919 I don't think anyone, least of all me, is gonna object to you calling dibs on Person of Interest. I'm guessing Greer and maybe Samaritan are the contenders?

Anyway, I've just about finished my effort-post for Zoom. It's going up tomorrow after I do a bit of proof-reading.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#60743: Jun 6th 2016 at 8:48:52 PM

I don't watch Gotham but I find it weird how some Batman mythos characters like Sal Maroni have already been killed off, despite this being set well before Bruce grows up and becomes Batman. I get that adaptation ≠ original but I still find it odd.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#60744: Jun 6th 2016 at 8:54:00 PM

[up] That is one of the problems with that show, Bruce is like 10 and they have already introduced half his rogues gallery. They are going to be middle aged or senior citizens by the time he becomes Batman.

edited 6th Jun '16 8:55:04 PM by Overlord

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60745: Jun 6th 2016 at 9:26:32 PM

[up]

I thought they were mostly introducing lesser known rogues in Gotham, besides Penguin, and Joker Expies?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#60746: Jun 6th 2016 at 9:33:25 PM

[up] Check out the show's Wikipedia page or the character page on this site, you would be surprised how many Batman villains have shown up.

Anyway I heard there will be new Voltron cartoon released this week on Netflix, done by the some creative minds for Avatar the Last Airbender, so it will likely be better then the last two Voltron cartoons. Who knows, maybe Zarkon will count or something.

It seems like the original 1980s Voltron, the villains were far more heinous in the original Japanese version then the English version, so we will see how the villains in this series play out.

edited 6th Jun '16 10:03:14 PM by Overlord

MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60748: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:13:57 PM

[up][up]

Who are some of the more famous ones, I know they have Victor Vsaz, but I always considered him a popular C-lister?

The uncensored/original Japanese anime, Golion, has both Daibazaal(Zarkon), and his son, Sincline(Lotor).

Come to think of it, someone feel familiar with Dairugger(Vehicle Voltron here), might be able to make a good case for Caponero(Throk) who was the series Main villainous force, and an immensely corrupt politician who was out for himself.

Villains wikia has a surprisingly good article on him.

edited 6th Jun '16 10:23:35 PM by Monsund

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#60749: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:20:45 PM

Yes, it's something of a shock to see Go Lion and Daibaazal is a tyrannical rapist and genocidal tyrant...while Sincline is also a rapist and a psychotic killer to boot, when you consider Zarkon and Lotor's more positive qualities.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#60750: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:24:04 PM

[up]

Definitely!

Are you familiar with Dairugger, do you think Caponero could possibly count?

edited 6th Jun '16 10:24:17 PM by Monsund


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