During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to The Dollmaker.
RE: awesomekid42
"They wouldn't need to have done that so long as the country still remains."
In the other Fire emblem games, when the majority of people in a country are killed, the game does indeed state that outright. There's no statement like that in Awakening, so you can't say it was definitely the majority.
"Aversa only says that there have been Grimleal who willingly offered themselves to Grima. Not that the only people affected were Grimleal."
Direct from the script
Frederick:What's more, it seems all the Grimleal in Plegia are headed there as well. It's as if they're being drawn by some unseen force...
Aversa:The Grimleal have gladly offered themselves to him for ages. Even now, they pray for his return...
Aversa even states the reason, she and Validar were recruiting so they could join them in the sacrifice. Its clear only Grimleal are affected, hence why Henry, and Tharja have no pull, they aren't Grimleal.
"Like I said, with Aversa needing to bribe him with the throne of Plegia for Excellius to help them out, it makes me doubt he was Grimleal, let alone a fanatic."
The game, not me, describes Excellus as a fanatic. Looking up early Serenesforest threads with Japanese supports, the japanese dialogue also calls Excellus, an extreme worshipper of Gimli(Grima in Japan).
"Alright then."
Considering Manfroy's been doing it for years across every nation on the continent, you can bet thats alot of people killed. Its also mentioned Manfroy has his personal guard destroy entire cities if one person refuses to submit to the child hunts.
Gharnef has also had Eremiah under his thrall for years.
"I'm quite certain I can say he sacrificed more than four people as opposed to Gharnef. And when the amount of Plegians converting to Grimleal are large enough that Aversa refers to Plegia as a whole turning to Grima, it leads to the belief that he sacrificed far more than only hundreds."
I already mentioned Gharnef did indeed brainwash more then four people. Manfroy likewise has been sacrificing for years in more then one country, so its likely his count then higher then Validars.
Brainwashed!Aversa says Plegia, she doesn't specify everyone in Plegia was converted to Grima. Frederick doesn't say everyone or the majority in Plegia either, he just says every Grimleal.
Even then, Manfroy has done this to multiple countries.
RE: Doll Maker
I'm not a regular viewer of Gotham, but he sounds like a
, unless I read some good arguments.
edited 6th Jun '16 3:11:40 PM by Monsund
Here's Dollmaker's effortpost, formatted so as to not be a Wall of Text. Seems like a
to me BTW.
Who is the Dollmaker? What does he do?
Francis Dulmacher is a mad surgeon, and a mysterious figure who is a respected miracle surgeon, able to replace body parts, with an assortment of seemingly unfitting pieces with full functionality for his rich clientele, to whom he puts on a friendly face for. How does he get these parts? He has a private island where he has hundreds imprisoned in his clinic, to have their body parts and organs removed. His prisoners are those he feels society won't miss, and in addition to his employees, he hires mercenaries, and pirates to guard his island and kidnap his victims. Early in the season, he hires two lackeys to put up a ruse of a charity to kidnap the street children of Gotham and traffic them to his island, when these plans are revealed, the mayor of Gotham orders the children to be taken to a detention facility "for protective purposes". These lackeys highjack one of the buses, but long story short the plan goes down the drain. In the second half of the season, when Fish Mooney is forced to flee Gotham, she ends up kidnapped by the Dollmaker's pirates, who take her to his clinic. There she take's control of his prisoners and meets with Dulmacher himself, hoping to work out a deal (while planning to escape the clinic). He plans on taking one of Fish's eyes, but she stabs a fork in her eye, pulls it out and steps on it, but he just has that eye replaced. Later, he shows her what happens to those fail or betray him - he uses his surgical skills and mismatched body parts to turn one of his former employees into a Frankenstein esque monstrosity, who is still alive and screaming. Later, Fish takes her plan into action, taking a group of prisoners to an escaped Helicopter, and having another distract Dulmacher and his mooks, and they manage to inflict a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown on him, but he ultimately lives.
Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?
None we see. This is what we got him so far, but I doubt his story is done, despite not being part of the seasons cliffhanger, so his story is done for now. That said he does freak out at Fish's defiance of him, but who wouldn't? And it was because she caught him by surprise, and cost him a chance to use her eyes. That's about it.
Heinous by the story's standards?
Well, there's a lot of villains on the show, and the show's main setting is Gotham City, and as Ambar pointed out, Oswald Cobbelpot sets a pretty high heinous standard to the show, pretty standard for the show; with it being filled with killers, the mafia, corrupt police, etc. That all said, the Dollmaker doesn't just kills people, but he keeps hundreds of prisoners alive, imprisoned for their body parts to be removed, and was planning on doing the same to homeless children, who themselves where kidnapped in high numbers. And as that poor mess of body parts shows us, he's not about inflicting And I Must Scream on people, even those who work for him and cross him.
edited 6th Jun '16 3:12:01 PM by ACW
RE: ACW
Keeping a thumbs up for Doll Maker. The only thing that could disqualify him now is if he gets a Freudian Excuse, and shows last minute remorse.
I'll also try to do some entry reworks of pre-existing examples this week, if I can get to them.
Abstaining on Dollmaker for now.
Also I heard a rumour they plan on putting Gotham in the Arrowverse (or at least it's multiverse as they did with Super Girl). If that's true, do we put Gotham examples on the Arrowverse page ? Same for Super Girl if it gets CM ?
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling.""In the other Fire emblem games, when the majority of people in a country are killed, the game does indeed state that outright. There's no statement like that in Awakening, so you can't say it was definitely the majority."
Ignoring how you only gave one example, there doesn't have to be a statement just because others had some.
First, saying all of the Grimleal doesn't exclude non Grimleal. Second, even if it only affects Grimleal, they didn't sacrifice their lives willingly. They were mind controlled into doing it.
"The game, not me, describes Excellus as a fanatic"
And the game, not me, mentions that Excellus had to be bribed to help Grima's cause.
"Considering Manfroy's been doing it for years across every nation on the continent, you can bet thats alot of people killed. Its also mentioned Manfroy has his personal guard destroy entire cities if one person refuses to submit to the child hunts. Gharnef has also had Eremiah under his thrall for years."
Why type all of this to my 'alright then?'
"I already mentioned Gharnef did indeed brainwash more then four people. Manfroy likewise has been sacrificing for years in more then one country, so its likely his count then higher then Validars."
Looking at your previous posts, I don't see where you said that. Enough people joined Grimleal to the point where Aversa referred the people who joined as Plegia. That tells how the majority of Plegia joined the Grimleal and were mind controlled into sacrifice. Likely to be far highter than the only hundreds that Manfroy was said to sacrifice.
Strange and Dollmaker
"He plans on taking one of Fish's eyes, but she stabs a fork in her eye, pulls it out and steps on it"
That sounds like one of the squickiest Awesome Moments ever.
As an aside, RIP Muhammad Ali
edited 6th Jun '16 3:54:21 PM by DemonDuckofDoom
RE: Awesome Kid 42
"Ignoring how you only gave one example, there doesn't have to be a statement just because others had some."
Why wouldn't there be a statement if it was everyone, the destruction of an entire countries population is something Fire Emblem gates would note.
Verbena's destruction is mentioned quite a few times in Genealogy of the Holy War's ending, if Plegia was that damaged, surely Chrom would mention in the ending about all the deaths, and how the nation is in ruins.
"First, saying all of the Grimleal doesn't exclude non Grimleal. Second, even if it only affects Grimleal, they didn't sacrifice their lives willingly. They were mind controlled into doing it."
If it was all Plegians the game would state it. As mentioned, Henry, and Tharja are not affected, and Aversa said she was recruiting people into the Grimleal because it would only work if they followed Grima.
Aversa: It drove the people to Grima... Now their life force and rancor can be laid before the fell dragon en masse
From this we're told it specifically only works on Grimleal.
Never said they weren't in a trance, but while sympathetic, they wouldn't have been affected if they hadn't joined the Evil Grimleal whose ideology involves sacrificing yourself to bring back Grima. Unlike Manfroy, and Gharnef's victims, they did join a cult that was very open about wanting to revive Grima.
"And the game, not me, mentions that Excellus had to be bribed to help Grima's cause."
And its the game, not me, that describes Excellus as a fanatical worshipper of Grima. Maybe he just drives a hard bargain.
"Looking at your previous posts, I don't see where you said that. Enough people joined Grimleal to the point where Aversa referred the people who joined as Plegia. That tells how the majority of Plegia joined the Grimleal and were mind controlled into sacrifice. Likely to be far highter than the only hundreds that Manfroy was said to sacrifice."
That implies alot, but it doesn't state its the majority
Only the child victims of Manfroy are mentioned to be in the hundreds, his adult victims have been gathered for 7 years in every nation on the entire continent. Gharnef's victims are never numbered, but its stated his actions resulted in entire countries taking years to recover.
Also Validar is agreed in the fandom to be a Generic Doomsday Villain. He has no stated motivation besides the implication of being a fanatic, barely a personality, and is less developed then the villains of the NES games. Many reviews of the game comment that Validar's lack of presence is a negative.
A villain without coherent motivation, goals, or personality; he is defined solely by the threat he poses.
Thats Validar down to a T. He's not even given a personality, as someone else wrote
"he's essentially a walking cliche. Furthermore, it's never really explained how his plan to resurrect Grima will benefit him in any way. He's part of the country-wide Religion of Evil dedicated to worshipping him, but really, if your god is going to turn the world into a uniformly shitty place filled with zombies, it's time to find a new one."
edited 6th Jun '16 3:57:41 PM by Monsund
Alright, I'm getting sick of the back and forth on Validar. Pretty much everyone's made up their mind about him. He's not the most interesting villain in the world, but he's suitably heinous, has enough of a personality to count, and has no redeeming qualities to speak of. Please, let's move on already.
Its due to the more heinous people Validar is up against in his same setting. Plus, he is loyal at least.
He also lacks a personality aside from wanting to do whatever Grima wants despite appearing throughout the game.
If nothing else, we should at least mention that it was specifically Grimleal that were sacrificed.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:08:48 PM by Monsund
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Disregarding everything else you wrote at the moment since right now we're just going around in circles (though I do find several of your points to be pretty good) and focusing on this bit.
"Thats Validar down to a T. He's not even given a personality, as someone else wrote"
Smug, overconfident, carries a Faux Affably Evil persona when talking with Chrom, and manipulative of Aversa, Gangrel, and the Shepherds for his own benefits. As I said when you brought this up before, I fail to see how he doesn't have a personality.
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"Alright, I'm getting sick of the back and forth on Validar"
I know what you mean. I'm just very stubborn.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:09:37 PM by Awesomekid42
I feel there's still a discussion, Validar is almost universally considered a Generic Dooms Day Villain among the fandom.
Validar is smug about Grima's plans, overconfident in Grima's plans rather then his own, not really Faux Affably Evil so much as Obviously Evil, never even seen manipulating anyone, Aversa he even just resorted to magical brainwashing.
Compare with Manfroy, and Gharnef who had full backstories, their manipulativeness was seen, had motives, and enjoyed ruining people's lives.
Gharnef: Despairing over the orphans' deaths, you fell all too easily under my spell. And then you gathered children, subjecting them to hellish training, just as I told you to. You watched the children cry and scream... and yet, you smiled... Heh heh, 'twas quite a sight.
By comparison to this line from Gharnef, you can see he does have a personality unlike Validar.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:15:16 PM by Monsund
Not sure where you heard that rumour, Beast, but I highly, highly doubt it. Different networks, different filming locations, different showrunners/producers etc., and Gotham directly competes with Supergirl for the same timeslot (8 PM EST on Mondays).
I do recall on April Fools' Day there was a hoax about The Flash crossing over with Gotham, since April 1st was only a few days after the Flash/Supergirl crossover aired. Maybe that was it?
edited 6th Jun '16 4:13:46 PM by speyeker
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He's over-confident in himself as well considering how his response to Robin's escape route was, and I quote, "if he had the wits of his father he would know that [the shepherds] already lost".
In the same chapter where he stole the Fire Emblem he welcomed Chrom and jokingly acted as if he was offended by Chrom's lack of courtesy. He also has a few rather sarcastic quotes later in the game.
"Come to witness the glorious culmination of your failure? How nice."
"The fell dragon needs only a mortal vessel which you so kindly brought along."
Again, I don't see how Validar doesn't have personality.
"never even seen manipulating anyone" Besides causing the Shepherds to take out Walhart and Valm, some of his biggest obstacles in reviving Grima.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:23:22 PM by Awesomekid42
"if he had the wits of his father he would know that [the shepherds] already lost".
Mild comment like that alone doesn't really give a personality.
"In the same chapter where he stole the Fire Emblem he welcomed Chrom and jokingly acted as if he was offended by Chrom's lack of courtesy."
How so, he just says they want the Fire Emblem spheres(Gemstones in Awakening).
Much of the sarcasm of Fauder, and Gimli is a Woolseiyism(much like Old Hubba's homophobic quotes being removed), both are more straight forward in the original script.
The only thing Validar himself did to manipulate the sheperds was blindly reveal Grima in Future Robin's body early on, do a unsuccessful attempt to control Robin with his magic, and give Chrom some boats when asked for some.
Not really much manipulation.
As stated before, all past villains who appeared as much as Validar, had a background, and motive. Neither of which, Validar receives. Reviving Grima doesn't even benefit him.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:28:45 PM by Monsund
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I was giving an example of how he was cocky about his own abilities. Not only Grima's.
"How so, he just says they want the Fire Emblem spheres(Gemstones in Awakening)."
Here's some dialogue from that chapter showing him having a fake sense of politeness.
Any reason why you suddenly switched to their japanese names? Anyway, do you know where I can find the original script of Validar to see if that's the case? And if it is, that just means only the japanese version of Validar is GDV not the english version.
"As stated before, all past villains who appeared as much as Validar, had a background, and motive. Neither of which, Validar receives."
Reviving Grima is his motive. It might not benefit him like with Manfroy, but that's still a motive.
I can't help but feel that you think uninspired villain instantly means GDV.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:50:53 PM by Awesomekid42
RE: Awesome Kid 42
I only use the japanese names when referring to differences in characterization. IE: Nowi is mentally adult, her counterpart in Japan, No No actually is a child by dragon, and mental standards.
I don't see how that line really gives him a real personality, its just generic villain talk.
It was a post on Serenesforest. Grima, for example, was alot more sarcastic in his boss quotes. I can look for it.
Reviving Grima is a motive, but its motive that makes no sense as Grima will kill him, and Validar, and many members of the Grimleal know this, but do it anyway for no explained reason, the wiki even notes their apparent lack of motive.
As mentioned, Gharnef, and Manfroy did have motives for helping their Dragon overlords.
How do you define difference between an uninspired villain and a Generic Dooms Day Villain?
Fantastic Racism is a motive at least. But I'll keep that in mind.
edited 6th Jun '16 4:55:18 PM by Monsund
