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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#6002: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:54:52 AM

Loki drove an alien invasion straight into New York.

I'd say Sympathetic Backstory would be the biggest reason for discounting Loki - he pretty much loses it after finding out he was a Frost Giant, swerved straight into Boomerang Bigot, and then, convinced no one would ever love him after that failed, threw himself through a wormhole.

He also fails the "everyone finds him heinous" test - Thor spends the entirety of his film and The Avengers just trying to convince Loki that he can still go home and be forgiven for his selfishness. Thor also is of the belief that Loki doesn't have moral agency, saying his mind has gone far afield (or something equally Shakespearean that I can't remember this early in the morning), but lack of moral agency is not something fully stated by either film.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6003: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:56:03 AM

@5988

We've often listed people for what they try to do though. The Skull tried to kill far more people then Loki did. The fact that it didn't work doesn't make him morally better, just less competent.

@Footsteps

As I said in my reply to Fighteer, Larry Meeks/Captain Hook certainly stands out within Hunter. I reread all the splatbooks before I posted and most of the vampires, werewolves, mages, and other slashers listed in both the main book and Night Stalkers, Spirit Slayers, Witch Finders, and Slasher possess at least some redeeming qualities, have some victims they won't hurt, possess a valid Freudian Excuse or don't have their crimes described in such detail. Larry (along with fellow 0 Morality psychopaths The Driver and John Smith) is the very worst that Slasher has to offer, and since it's easily the most gory of the splats, that makes him the worst of what Hunter has to offer.

Obviously what Larry does isn't on paar with the actions of say Belial's Brood, The Bale Hounds, or The True Fae, but that's because he's one, not especially bright person. His only supernatural ability is his charm, and even that's undermined by the Hair-Trigger Temper that all Charmers/Psychos possess. Additionally, most Hunters, if you run the game the way the splatbooks seem to want you to, aren't liable to encounter the Brood or the Bale Hounds (or if they do, aren't likely to have any idea just what it is they've encountered). They are likely to run into Larry, who is meant to be used as an antagonist in a Hunter chronicle. As such he's among the most awful people a Hunter group is likely to encounter.

edited 21st Dec '12 9:57:23 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6004: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:57:39 AM

[up][up][up] What? But, Loki doesn't count.

edited 21st Dec '12 9:58:12 AM by Krystoff

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#6005: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:58:06 AM

Oh, we have? My mistake. Then I'd support having Red Skull as a CM, given that he would pretty much qualify for every other CM point.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6006: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:58:23 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing he counts. Largo was explaining to Fighteer why someone might argue he does, and why he should be dicounted

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#6007: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:58:35 AM

Edit: Ninja'd.

edited 21st Dec '12 9:58:49 AM by LargoQuagmire

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#6008: Dec 21st 2012 at 10:12:24 AM

@5984: I meant that Sombra was still on the MLP YMMV, and I think we should get him off, or that list of unmentionables isn't as airtight.

[down] Should we vote first? There were some people arguing for his inclusion (not me though I still think he's a Generic Doomsday Villain).

edited 21st Dec '12 10:40:29 AM by DrPsyche

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6009: Dec 21st 2012 at 10:18:24 AM

If Sombra is still on My Little Pony blah YMMV it needs to be taken off.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6010: Dec 21st 2012 at 11:50:25 AM

Can I please have a link to the thread with rejected examples?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6011: Dec 21st 2012 at 11:58:12 AM

It's the OP.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6012: Dec 21st 2012 at 12:06:01 PM

Sorry, what does OP stand for?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#6013: Dec 21st 2012 at 12:06:45 PM

Original Post. Acronyms...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#6014: Dec 21st 2012 at 12:51:56 PM

Fairy Tail is rather awful.

  • Monsier Sol: Might count, but he was played fairly silly while on screen. He is a legitimate threat though.
  • Jose: Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. I really question if he's beyond redemption.
  • Zancrow: This one counts, as he's the only one legitimately nuts.
  • Jilemma: Cut. He did almost nothing other than be Orcus on His Throne before getting killed off. Fails in comparison to other heinousness.
  • Minerva: Cut, at least until the arc is over. She's a bitch, but people who have done similar things as her have been redeemed in the past.

edited 21st Dec '12 12:52:41 PM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6015: Dec 21st 2012 at 2:34:41 PM

The Inuyasha page is a mess, too...

Give me time tonight,m I'll get some work done on the YMMV.True Blood pages and that as well.

Lu: I agree with your list. I'd keep Zancrow and Jose, but that's really it from there. Fairy Tail's difficult to find Monsters in given the themes of friendship and redemption.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Acnologia counts before long.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot Sol. Eh, I'd keep him unless the silliness is way too much. The Joker and Kefka have plenty 'comedy' moments after all

edited 21st Dec '12 2:36:51 PM by Lightysnake

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#6016: Dec 21st 2012 at 4:08:04 PM

I'd throw my vote down for the Red Skull as being the only (at present) Complete Monster present. As his actor said this is a character who thought Hitler was a wimp, and his big plan is to drop Tesseract powered bombs on at least eight major cities around the world, and we've seen enough of the Tesseracts power to know these things would be devestating.

Everyone else falls short on the henious standard; Stane only tries to kill two people and kills a few due to collataral damage, the leader of the Ten Rings suffers a lot from offscreen villiany, and I don't think any of the others would even be considered for it.

And finally I'll retract my claim to make the Hunt Club/Slashers the exception for groups, and throw them behind the characters Ambar specified. All things considereed there aren't a lot of complete monsters in any New World Of Darkness line, or old/classic world for that matter.

EDIT: Also Fighteer, next time you come around can you add this to the OP under the video game list?

  • Heavy Rain - The Origami Killer. Disqualified due to sympathetic backstory and being an Anti Villian. Also disqualified for being a player character.

Does anyone want to add Sigma and Gamma from Red Vs Blue to that list or do you guys feel there hasn't been enough discussion to completely shut it down?

edited 21st Dec '12 5:41:38 PM by Shaoken

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6017: Dec 21st 2012 at 8:12:29 PM

[up]Cool. That makes two for sure (you and Occasional Exister) and one tentative (Fighteer) votes for Captain Hook (with one tentative no—32_Footsteps) in addition to my own. Will do possible write-ups for The Driver and John Smith, since you seem to think they qualify, and I personally at least, have a difficult time disagreeing.

If there are any CMs in the Marvel filmverse, the Skull would indeed have to be at the top of the list.

edited 21st Dec '12 8:13:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#6018: Dec 21st 2012 at 8:29:41 PM

[up]Slasher is probably one of the World of Darkness books that I am most familiar with. From what I remember Captain Hook meets the criteria for CM. Nothing sympathetic and while an exact list of victims is not given if I remember correctly it is implied to be a significant number as well as a fairly graphic/gruesome torturous death given to all. From what I remember he is worse enough compared to the other NP Cs provided that I remember his story and that many of the other ones in the book have sympathetic elements.

I think that it also might be worth mentioning that (provided I am remembering correctly) he likes to tell stories of his past kills to the people that enter his shop but using language that leads people to concluded that he is talking about fishing.

As to the other two slashers that you mentioned, no objections spring to mind but I would suggest that you do write ups so that we can compare them to each other.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#6019: Dec 21st 2012 at 9:10:19 PM

@32_Footsteps:

Sorry. I was asking if anyone else had an opinion on the Ace Attorney examples. I'd like to discuss Bansai Ichiyanagi in particular.

He's basically if Ghetsis was a prosecutor. He fails the heinous standard and is eclipsed by the Big Bad (arguably a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds) and the Bigger Bad who was killed by said Big Bad. Definite cut.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#6020: Dec 21st 2012 at 10:09:04 PM

[up][up]Your memory is fine Sophia. You don't need to qualify every sentence (and certainly not twice).smile

And yes, Captain Hook does talk about his killings constantly. Since he's too inhuman to maintain his facade for long (seriously, the guy's a raging mess under his nice guy persona), he spends most of his time talking about the people he's killed, using fishing metaphors so that his customers will misconstrue the kind of "fishing" he means. A sample:

"Sorry, can't talk, goin' fishin'. A big one got away from me last weekend, but this time I'll get 'im for sure."

I think it's worth noting that Larry's invitation from the Subtle Collectors Association is a major point in favour of his inclusion, as least for me. A long-running slasher cabal, the SCA only invites those who are totally depraved (and unlike with the Hunt Club, the "no good points" thing is in the SCA charter), have a high body count, and enjoy talking about their murders with those who have similar interests. The fact that Captain Hook's taken this invitation as a sign that he's doing the right thing, and hopes to step up his game to impress them says very, very bad things about the man. Taking that into account, here's an updated version of his entry:

  • Larry Meeks, alias Captain Hook. A small, pudgy, uninspiring man, Larry runs a bait shop, dresses like he's going on a fishing expedition and has a fanatical hatred of anybody he thinks is better looking, more successful, or stronger then he is. A murderer since the age of fifteen, when he first determined to "prove himself", Larry baits in his victims with kindness, playing the role of the favourite neighbour or kindly uncle. Once he's won their confidence, he then subdues them with a gaffhook, and hangs them up in his fishing shack with thousands of tiny fish hooks embedded in their skin. Slowly draining his victims of blood over the course of several days, Larry then guts and cleans them "just like a pretty trout." Active for years, a recent invitation from the Subtle Collectors' Association (a cabal of like-minded killers) has convinced Larry that it is time to up his game, and he plans to move onto still bigger and better targets in the hopes of impressing upon his compatriots the is the best. Totally consumed by his need to hurt people, Larry spends most of his off time talking to his customers about his murders, using fishing metaphors to obscure what he's really talking about.

Since both Shaoken and Sophia have now requested it, I thought I'd provide write-ups for the other two candidates. Before I do though, I think I should give a little more detail for those unaware with the setting. Slasher is a supplement for Hunter The Vigil, a game where you play as monster hunter taking out vampires, werewolves, mages, and of course, slashers. Slashers in the setting are serial killers who have gained supernatural abilities due to their skill as killers. Avengers/Legends are motivated by revenge and eventually run the risk of becoming trapped in their own story. Brutes/Masks are nearly unstoppable. Charmers/Psychos can talk you into anything (despite the fact that many of them are obviously insane). Freaks/Mutants are horrifyingly disfigured. And finally, Geniuses/Maniacs are brilliant planners whose madness can be infectious. The Slasher book gives advice on how to create these characters as both antagonists, and, if you so wish, player characters. It's the book that The Hunt Club is from, and where our current entry on slashers is taken from.

In any case, most slashers are, are the products of horrible abuse, whether normal or supernatural. The book makes a very big deal out of this, detailing all the godawful things that could lead to a person snapping so badly that they not only become a serial killer, but a fullblown, Slasher Movie-style horror show. It's worth noting that almost all Freaks and Mutants have the built-in Freudian Excuse of having been persecuted for their appearance. Most Avengers also can't qualify for this trope due to their motivations, while their upgrade, Legends, lack a lot of moral agency as they are bound by their own story (if anyone doesn't get what I mean by that feel free to ask/PM me about it). Finally, Masks (though not Brutes) feel physical pain in the presence of other people, and kill to make it stop. With that in mind, I would have great difficulty qualifying anyone from any of those undertakings as a CM.

At the end of book (and after providing lots of story excerpts and ideas) the book lists seventeen sample slashers. These are the only characters in the book (and among the few characters in all the Hunter books) fleshed out enough for us to worry about. They are The Bookworm (Freak), The Burning Lady (Mask), Captain Hook (Psycho), Cinderella (Genius), The Dollmaker (Charmer), The Driver (Maniac), Father Ghost (Avenger), Fatso (Mutant), Jenny the Fixer (Avenger), John Smith (Charmer), Lefty (Freak), The Painted Bride (Legend), Phelps (Brute), Skeleton (Mutant), The Sower (Legend), The Tin Angel (Mask), and Y (Maniac). Of these seventeen, most possess a Freudian Excuse, are excused by the nature of their undertaking, have loved ones and/or standards, mean well, simply aren't that bad comparitively, or in the case of Y and Phelps are actually well intentioned extremists (if very nasty ones). Three of them, however, do not. Larry Meeks, alias Captain Hook, is currently under discussion. The other two are as follows.

Harvey Ecks, alias The Driver, The Rest Stop Killer, and The Torso Maker. In game terms he's a 0 Morality Maniac. In practical terms:

  • Harvey Ecks, known variously as The Rest Stop Killer, The Torso Maker, and (his preferred sobriquet) The Driver, had a dream when he was still in the womb. In it, he learned that by understanding the Dream Pattern, he would be able to gain total control over all reality. In his quest to achieve this goal, Harvey discovered that by forcing people to watch their limbs being amputated, he could make them reveal pieces of the Pattern. Once a roving killer who left headless torsos at rest stops, Harvey decided that this was too inefficent. Staking out a patch of the interstate highway, Harvey brainwashed diner waitresses, gas station attendents, and state troopers into blindly serving him, the installed video surveillance cameras on billboards. When he sights a likely victim, he forces his servants (who know him only as The Driver) to help him capture that person, whom he then tortures to death in the hopes that they will reveal more of the Pattern.

Let's go through the criteria.

1) Is he heinous by the standards of the story? Yes. Harvey's one of the most brutal, and longest running murderers in the book. His method of killing is horrendous, he's been getting away with it for years, and his end goal (delusional though it may be) is sufficent nasty and grandiose. The only slasher who rivals him for "torture inflicted upon victims" is Captain Hook, and that's bad company to be in. Pass.

2) Does he have redeeming features? No. Like Larry Meeks, Harvey Ecks is a loner with no friends, who kills people in a quest to satisfy his own ego. Pass.

3) Does he have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factor? Depends on how you look at it. It should be fairly clear to anybody reading this entry that Harvey is crazy. I'm not sure that's a mitigating factor in his case though, because it doesn't make him sympathetic or make his actions seem moral. If you think that torturing people to death stops Satan from taking over the world (even if it doesn't) you don't qualify for this trope. If you think torturing people to death will let you Take Over the World (even if it doesn't) you still might. I think he passes.

That's the easy one. Harvey's craziness might be a mitigating factor, but in every other way he's as bad as Captain Hook. Our next candidate is a little different.

John Smith. There's no alias; that's the only name he's got. In game terms he's a 0 Morality Charmer. In practical terms:

  • John Smith doesn't know his real name. He doesn't know where he's from, or what he used to do for a living. That's okay with John though, because he wants to be somebody else anyway. John picks out a target, and infiltrates their lives, becoming the person's closest friend. He cuts them off from all their other friends and family, slowly isolating his victim, until the person they trust above all others (in fact the only one they trust) is John himself. All the while, he collects information on everything from their credit card numbers to their personal mannerisms. When he thinks the time is right, John then frames his "friend" for a crime they didn't commit, suggests they run away together, and then chloroforms them unconcious, kills them, and dumps the body. Taking on his victim's identity, John starts a new life somewhere else. However, it's never too long before John (or whoever he is now) starts to feel that this new identity doesn't quite fit. And then he goes searching for another victim.

Criteria:

1) Heinous by the standards of the story? Yes. John, like Captain Hook and The Driver is a long-running killer. While he doesn't torture his victims the way they do, his routine, of gaining the victim's trust, ruining their life, and then betraying them at the last possible second, strikes me as pretty awful (not to mention terrifying). Pass.

2) No redeeming features. None. John's goal in life is to steal yours. Beyond that he has no interest in other people.

3) Freudian Excuse and/or mitigating factors? Maybe. The book suggests that John has a painful past that he's suppressing. However, it also notes that John has no interest in finding out about that past, and that "live for the moment" is his motto. We don't know if anything bad happened to John, and since he doesn't care, there's not much reason we should. Pass, I think.

John may not have the sheer brutality of Captain Hook and The Driver, but given how frightening he is, and the fact that he meets all the criteria, I'm inclined to think he ranks with them. As it stands Occasional Exister, Shaoken, Sophia, Fighteer (tentatively) and myself wish to include Captain Hook, with 32_Footsteps unsure whether to support or oppose. I, Shaoken, and Sophia (tentatively) have suggested John Smith and The Driver. Thoughts?

If there are any questions, please PM me or just ask here.

edited 21st Dec '12 10:14:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#6021: Dec 21st 2012 at 11:48:12 PM

As promised, waaaaay back when, here's my new writeu[ on Garo villain Barago

Original entry:

  • Garo had Barago, who was a rouge power hungry former Makai Knight wo was responisble for many of the horrible things happening in the first series from Kaoru being the gate for Messiah to The murder of Kouga's Father and Rei's Family there was also the part where he cut down the mirage of his own mother just to show not only how much he was willing to give up but to prove that his own family was less important to him than power, which was all he wanted from life, it's quite ironic when he is screwed over by Messiah since he was planning to stab her in the back in order for, you guessed it, MORE power.

New entry:

  • Garo brings us the evil, power hungry Barago. Barago was once a member of the Makai Knights, an order of powerful beings who defend humanity from the horrors in the dark. Nearly every horrible thing in series can be traced back to Barago. He made the innocent heroine of the series into a vessel for a demonic being known as Messiah, which would allow Messiah to consume both the girl and then the world (for nothing more than his personal gain). He murdered series hero Kouga's father, and The Lancer Rei's entire family to amnipulate them further in the future. To prove he has no attachment to humanity or human beings, Barago cuts down a mirae of his own mother to prove that his family means less to him than power. Barago is willing to allow humanity be devoured for his own gain, and carelessly uses and discards whoever is in his way. When one hero begs Barago to remember why he once joined the order of the Makai Knights, Barago's only response is to coldly say he can't even remember.

As for Ambar's examples...I'm gonna vote for them

edited 21st Dec '12 11:50:46 PM by Lightysnake

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#6022: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:18:30 AM

TV Rulez Again doesn't seem to stop.

One of his deleted examples was Sebastian Shaw from the X Men First Class YMMV. Allthough it was poorly written, Shaw is a CM in every way. Thoughts?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#6023: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:25:12 AM

Wait wait wait !!!!

Is the Captain Hook in the discussion the guy from Peter Pan?! This guy is more absurd than anything! He should be removed from the list (if he is on it).

Also, how come Yakone is not in the OP?

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#6024: Dec 22nd 2012 at 4:49:50 AM

[up][up]I will get on it and examine it. If he's done it for multiple articles I will call for him to be banned at Ask The Tropers. EDIT: Yep, he deleted the Batman one too, although that was two days ago, so while it was still being discussed and before I saw a vote on it.

[up]Calm down, it's a novel idea but we're not really throwing everything we have into adding everyone to the list.

The Legend Of Korra - Yakone. Disqualified for failing the Truly Henious standard and offscreen villiany.

EDIT: I also vote for Ambar's examples.

edited 22nd Dec '12 5:03:13 AM by Shaoken


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