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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59501: May 22nd 2016 at 7:58:06 PM

From what I've heard, Animated!Trigon doesn't count as a Complete Monster since he's more of a Generic Doomsday Villain. On the other hand, Comic!Trigon does count since he actually has a personality. So what's Comic!Trigon's personality like? Asking for curiosity's sake since I know NOTHING about Comic!Trigon.

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#59502: May 22nd 2016 at 8:24:51 PM

[up] It's been years, but from what I can remember Comic Trigon is still pretty generic. I'm also not totally sure he isn't just Made of Evil, but again, it's been at least ten years since I read the Wolfman Titans run, and I've only intermittently read Titans since... he's usually one of their less interesting villains for me, as most of his stories are usually "Hey Raven, come be evil" and/or "I'm gonna destroy the world because I'm evil!" IIRC.

Personality-wise, I remember a lot of shouting.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#59503: May 22nd 2016 at 8:53:57 PM

[up] Comic book Trigon is a rapist, there is far too personal a crime for a GDV, I also feel like the comic book Trigon was better set up as a sadist then the 2003 animated Trigon was. The Trigon from the latest DC animated movie was similar to the comic version, that is why he counted.

Also there is no evidence that Trigon is Made of Evil, indeed in the comics he mentions that he choose to be evil. I don't think we should assume demons are Made of Evil, the traditional Western conception of demons involves them choosing to be evil.

Anyway I will give a late [tup] to the Hidden One.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#59504: May 22nd 2016 at 9:54:02 PM

When does someone count as a GDV? Because numerous monsters seem to have little personality and still count, ronin the accusers a good example.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#59505: May 22nd 2016 at 9:56:11 PM

Compare Ronan to Malekith. There's your answer.

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59506: May 22nd 2016 at 9:57:33 PM

[up][up][up]0_e Trigon was a rapist?! Speaking of which, Trigon was filled with Azarath's evil energy at birth. No issues with that?

[up][up]Probably because Ronan has a goal other than "Crush, Kill, Destroy".

edited 22nd May '16 9:57:48 PM by superboy313

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#59507: May 22nd 2016 at 10:05:03 PM

He slept with Raven's mother, then assumed his true form to mock her about having just impregnated her with a demon child who'd destroy the world.

It's a personal touch of cruelty that a GDV wouldn't have.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#59508: May 22nd 2016 at 10:09:19 PM

[up][up] Trigon raped Raven's mom, that is how Raven was conceived. That wasn't in the 2003 cartoon because it was aimed at kids. Some monsters simply don't work in a setting aimed at kids, there have been two animated versions of Purple Man (Jessica Jones arch enemy) and neither counted, because some settings were not a good place to discuss Purple Man's worse crimes. Cetain villains get tonned down based on the setting, Trigon became a GDV in the 2003 cartoon and Purple Man was just a Jerkass in both of his animated appearances.

Plus I thought there was an issue where Trigon mentioned that he choose to be evil. GDV Trigon is still better then the Bumbling Dad version of the character from the new Teen Titans cartoon.

edited 22nd May '16 10:56:56 PM by Overlord

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#59509: May 22nd 2016 at 11:25:18 PM

[up] Oh god! Don't even mention that piece of shit cartoon.

edited 22nd May '16 11:25:35 PM by bobg

jjj
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#59510: May 22nd 2016 at 11:34:42 PM

Mentioning Teen Titans Go? That's a paddlin'.

edited 22nd May '16 11:36:16 PM by AustinDR

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59511: May 22nd 2016 at 11:50:58 PM

Well, since I now know that Comics Trigon has no signs of being Made of Evil, (as well as being a fucking rapist *shudders*) he definitely qualifies as a Complete Monster.

edited 23rd May '16 1:19:58 AM by superboy313

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#59512: May 22nd 2016 at 11:53:21 PM

[up] Again, speaking from foggy recollection here so I apologize if I'm off, but isn't his whole *point* that he's Made of Evil? Keeps telling Raven that because she's half him, she'll end up evil, and her whole conflict is staying true to her human side instead of her demon side? I get that not all demons are Made of Evil, but I thought Trigon pretty explicitly was...

edited 22nd May '16 11:53:34 PM by Monessi

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59513: May 22nd 2016 at 11:57:53 PM

[up]Well, some sources state that Trigon was a demigod that was infused by the collective evil energy of Azarath on birth. But then again, his backstory is somewhat ambiguous as he's stated to have been a formless energy that gained life upon the birth of the demigod and chose to be evil as others have said.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#59515: May 23rd 2016 at 1:08:57 AM

Yes, happy birthday, DDD. May a Satanic Donald Duck weasel itself into your life before you lose your youth.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59516: May 23rd 2016 at 4:13:33 AM

"May a Satanic Donald Duck weasel itself into your life before you lose your youth."
THERE'S a sentence you don't see every day. [lol][lol][lol]

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#59517: May 23rd 2016 at 6:15:23 AM

Re Trigon: Are we discussing another comic book CM, right after we got done discussing another?

I don't think Trigon has no choice but to be evil. IIRC, wasn't Darkseid born evil, but he's still capable of choosing between good and evil?

edited 23rd May '16 6:15:41 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#59518: May 23rd 2016 at 7:51:28 AM

I have to say Mongul and darkseid look similar to me, like their designs have a few similarities.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#59519: May 23rd 2016 at 8:02:50 AM

Alright, I'm gonna get back in gear on this soon...Momoshiki soon, then the rest of the Koontz baddies

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#59520: May 23rd 2016 at 8:32:52 AM

I seem to recall hearing that Mongul started off as DC's version of Thanos and that Thanos started off as Marvel's version of Darkseid, so...

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59521: May 23rd 2016 at 9:12:54 AM

[up][up]Holy crap. After that, we'll've finally cleared off your list (for now) surprised

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#59522: May 23rd 2016 at 12:03:12 PM

@Ghosty

Is there a limit on comic book discussions? I personally prefer 'em to fanfics or anime; different strokes.

Re: Trigon

I'll defer to the crowd. I don't know the character well enough to be sure.

Re: Darkseid

Darkseid chose to be evil? Are we 100% sure on that? I've been on a break from DC for the last three or so years, but traditionally he's always been portrayed as a literal God of Evil.

Re: Mongul

Yep. Jim Starlin created Thanos to be his Marvel Darkseid, fell in love with the character, then when he was back at DC he created Mongul to be his DC Thanos.

Of the three, Mongul's the one who most strikes me as a potential Complete Monster. Thanos is capable of caring for others in rare cases, and I'm dubious of Darkseid's agency.

edited 23rd May '16 12:05:05 PM by Monessi

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#59523: May 23rd 2016 at 12:07:44 PM

If you don't think Darkseid has agency, then frankly, you don't know the character well at all...Uxas absolutely chooses to be what he is. Nothing ever remotely implies he's a slave to his nature. QUITE the contrary.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#59524: May 23rd 2016 at 12:21:53 PM

Can we please not start a discussion on Darkseid now?

Why so serious?
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#59525: May 23rd 2016 at 12:57:05 PM

[up] Yeah, I don't think we have to go over every settled comic book characters, we shouldn't be debating these characters again.

@ Monessi, you can always bring up some new characters, I have proposed a lot of obscure comic book villains over the years, but I don't think people want to debate characters who were settled a long time, unless you have a really good new argument.

I found a good quote for Ajax that was on the Villain Wiki:

http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Ajax_(X-Men_Movies)

I will reproduce it here, it is involving Ajax revealing his true plan to Wade Wilson:

"You still think we're making you a super hero, You... a dishonorable discharge, Hip-deep in hookers, You're nothing. Little secret, Wade: This workshop doesn't make superheroes, we make super-slaves. We're gonna fit you with a control collar and auction you off to the highest bidder. Who knows what they'll have you doing? Terrorizing citizens, putting down freedom fighters, maybe just mow the occasional lawn."

Also someone added a note under the Bavmorda entry:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Willow

I don't think that note is necessary, it certainly doesn't make Bavmorda sympathetic or tells anything else about the character that is relevant.

edited 23rd May '16 1:00:12 PM by Overlord


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