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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#59301: May 18th 2016 at 10:09:39 PM

[up] Regarding trashy subjects that we may not want to touch, I wouldn't mind a rule against discussing works that actively promote bigotry.

I don't think this a huge problem, but the Turner Dairies and Jack Chick's various hateful comic strips were discussed in the past and there is potentially other hateful works out there that we may want to avoid, such as say Angel Cop, a trashy anime that is highly Anti Semitic in the original Japanese (the English dub makes it far less bigoted, but the work is still bad regardless of which language it is spoken in.)

edited 18th May '16 10:13:03 PM by Overlord

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#59302: May 18th 2016 at 10:39:15 PM

Henry sounds about as heinous as Squidward Tentacles so definite [tdown] especially if murder is common place for the show.

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59303: May 18th 2016 at 10:45:15 PM

So if a character is actually described as the personification of evil yet never actually shows any signs of being Made of Evil despite having little to no backstory, can they still quality as a CM?

Sorry for being so pushy just wanted to hear someone's thoughts.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#59304: May 18th 2016 at 10:55:27 PM

[up]I think they would still count. I don't think being called the personification of evil always means that they are made of it, it could just be a metaphor for an extremely vile individual.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#59305: May 18th 2016 at 10:58:43 PM

[up][up] As in, an Anthropomorphic Personification of evil? That would almost certainly raise moral agency issues. However, as username said, the term can be a metaphor.

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#59306: May 18th 2016 at 11:04:16 PM

[up]It could also mean that the so-called God of Evil is really a primordial being that serves as the root of all evil due to it turning to the dark side a la Ahriman.

Remember Apophis? Is he Made of Evil or not? Just something I need to get off my chest because I've been having a really hard time telling if he's Made of Evil or not.

edited 18th May '16 11:12:51 PM by superboy313

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#59307: May 18th 2016 at 11:43:25 PM

Odd series of happenings we've had going on in the thread right now. Anyways, here's Dr. Zachary's writeup:

Sonic the Comic: Dr. Zachary, an enemy of Knuckles, introduced as a seemingly harmless old man and one of the last of the echidnas. Zachary tricked Knuckles into leading him into the Emerald Chamber, whereupon he shattered the Master Emerald and used the Chaos Emeralds to empower a reprogrammed machine of his. Zachary gleefully allowed the inhabited floating island to fall onto Mobius as a “monument to his genius” and intended to butcher the population of the planet Mobius for his own amusement before seeking revenge on Knuckles' people. In his second appearance, rebuilt as a cyborg, Zachary leads Robotnik to the location of the floating island's villagers so Robotnik could use them as components in a biological computer which would consequentially kill them – a process which Zachary happily watched over. Possessed of a vindictive streak matched by few, Zachary manages to outshine most of the comic's other antagonists despite his relatively minor running as a villain.

[down] Done; filed it under a new sub-section between Archie and the animated series in case another candidate from the comic is brought up.

edited 19th May '16 1:47:46 AM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59308: May 19th 2016 at 1:27:58 AM

Scraggle, please add to the Drafts page.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#59309: May 19th 2016 at 6:07:33 AM

Are we going to do a re-evaluation on Aki Honda? She's been brought up more than once to have had a cordial relationship with her brother, and arguably not being heinous enough.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59310: May 19th 2016 at 6:19:05 AM

I'd say she's heinous enough...a rape with a test tube? Now, as for her brother...that may in fact be disqualifying (although cordial isn't enough...Ajax from Deadpool had a cordial enough relationship with Angel.Dust, but not enough to disqualify him).

edited 19th May '16 6:19:51 AM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#59311: May 19th 2016 at 6:29:41 AM

I don't think Aki and her brother have enough screen time to determine whetehr their relationship is mitigating. That, and this was mentioned previously, but the implications that she and her brother have an incestuous relationship was probably just to make her seem even more disgusting.

Why so serious?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#59312: May 19th 2016 at 6:55:06 AM

That still doesn't take out the issue of the heinous standard, considering the person she does this to basically turns the exact same thing against her, as well as bolstering a body-count that consists of Aki's cronies.

[down] Still very much "evil" though. Even ignoring the question if Aki meets the absolute heinous standard, I'm uncomfortable with these questions going resolved.

edited 19th May '16 7:04:21 AM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59313: May 19th 2016 at 6:59:41 AM

"considering the person the does this to basically turns the exact same thing against her..."
Pay Evil unto Evil?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#59314: May 19th 2016 at 7:04:02 AM

[up][up]To be honest, she deserved it, but, yeah, there's a problem with the heinous standard.

edited 19th May '16 7:04:15 AM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59315: May 19th 2016 at 7:12:23 AM

I'd be tempted to bring up The Slavers and Wolfram, but they're even worse that what happens to them (what with Wolfram killing children and his super-sadism; and while I haven't read it, the Slavers just seem awful).


So I guess, even though I strongly disagree, I'll have to live with Vargas not counting sad. So be it.
Any more votes either way on Underground!Robotnik? Incidentally, the tweaked Zachary and Erazor entries are in the folder on the Drafts page.

edited 19th May '16 7:45:29 AM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#59316: May 19th 2016 at 8:43:07 AM

Here's my write up for Xavius. For now, I'm categorizing him as an expanded universe character and putting him with the Stormrage novel much like how Azshara is written under the War of the Ancients trilogy.

Stormrage: Xavius, once the high councilor to Queen Azshara, is best known for the evils he committed as the first satyr and the Nightmare Lord. Xavius can be said to be the mastermind behind the Burning Legion's first invasion when he convinced Azshara and the Highborne that Sargeras was a deity and would lead them to godhood. After his first death, he became the first satyr and corrupted many of his brethren into that form while also seeking eternal vengeance on Malfurion Stormrage who was responsible for his first and second defeats. Changing his allegiance to the Old Gods, Xavius would go on to become the creator and master of the Emerald Nightmare. As the Nightmare Lord, he corrupted much of the Green Dragonflight and entrapped many druids, including Malfurion. Now his prisoner and plaything, Xavius upheld his end of the bargain and began destroying Azeroth. He swallowed much of the world into the Emerald Nightmare causing countless people to become eternal victims of the own worst nightmares. Eventually defeated again by Malfurion, Xavius would later pledge the Nightmare to the Burning Legion to deliver his wrath to both Malfurion and all Azeroth.

edited 19th May '16 8:45:15 AM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#59317: May 19th 2016 at 8:55:55 AM

@Ravok

It's all cool. Just take some deep breaths and maybe stay away from horror novels for a time.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59318: May 19th 2016 at 8:59:43 AM

Incidentally, I'll probably be doing the drafts tomorrow morning (submission Monday as usual), as my sister's getting married Saturday smile

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#59319: May 19th 2016 at 9:00:00 AM

I will also add that with seven examples and considering how well known the Franchise is, Warcraft could do with its own page image but I have not found anything that could work.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#59320: May 19th 2016 at 9:13:20 AM

This post wasn't really acknowledged by anybody, so I just copy-pasted it.

The image for the World Of Darkness page has been bugging me for months. We have no idea who the monster is supposed to be, and from what I've looked up, none of the CM's in Hunter the Vigil actually are involved in what the image shows.

Here's what I propose we use for the image instead (Vykos drinking blood from a cup). And another possible image (Vykos holding a skull with a smile)

I know that both are kind of weak, but they're the only images I could find of a World of Darkness CM doing anything that shows that they're heinous.

edited 19th May '16 4:38:25 PM by Awesomekid42

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#59321: May 19th 2016 at 9:24:12 AM

I'm inclined to agree on needing a new WOD image

MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#59322: May 19th 2016 at 9:30:54 AM

So I guess from what I've read that Norman Osborn has to go, then. If in his post-resurrection status he's still capable of loving someone, maybe he's just a 99% but not without redeeming trait. Or are there any mitigating factors ?

edited 19th May '16 9:31:49 AM by MovieFan2000

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#59323: May 19th 2016 at 9:55:46 AM

Man, that discussion surely goes on forever. So far, only 1 person has been in favor of cutting. The rest pretty much universally agrees that said 'redeeming' features post resurrection aren't played consistently enough. Him being a total bastard however is.

The tally was pretty clear.

edited 19th May '16 9:56:20 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#59324: May 19th 2016 at 10:00:04 AM

[tdown] Aki Honda despite how horrible she is. Norman Osborn stays, though.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#59325: May 19th 2016 at 10:00:57 AM

Either Vykos image works for me.


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