During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah, didn't Flynn have that one Pet the Dog moment, where he let a victim go? Although, a thought occurred to me: Wouldn't time be a resource? If Vargas had kept going, he too could've reached double digits.
edited 18th May '16 3:05:28 PM by ACW
Flynn had a rather nightmarish Freudian Excuse (his abusive hooker mother not only made him watch her at work, she sold him to pedophiles for extra cash) and gives up once a Kirk Summation from JJ successfully convinces him he's Not So Different from a child he orphaned.
You know, as high as the heinous standard is for CM, and as bad as the qualifiers are, it's amazing to me also how many don't count because of a Freudian Excuse or what have you. In fact, I think all of the triple-digit killers besides Vasher were disqualified. Flynn, Yates had a nightmarish past, as did Perotta, while Breitkopf cared for Jane, and the two female Unsubs each have a Freudian Excuse as well (Mayford had much of her family die, while Cat Adams was abused by her father and foster father).
I still think time counts as a resource, but I may just have to make Vargas the charter member of characters who I think count but were voted down (my other effortposts that didn't count, Judge Cal and Fleshmaster, I wasn't entirely sure about myself).
edited 18th May '16 3:17:59 PM by ACW
Not to mention, the Freudian Excuses that C Ms have are ALWAYS weak. Lotso, anyone? How about Johan Liebert?
Hi. I'm kind of a lurker on the site, so I do apologize if I'm nominating in the wrong place or if I mess up.
My first nomination for Complete Monster would be Henry Reynard, from the episode "Test of Wills", from Murder She Wrote. I will give as brief a summary of the episode as I can to prove my case.
In the episode, Henry invites Jessica to his private island under the pretense of a charity event. Shit hits the fan, however, when he reveals that he invited her here to investigate several attempts on his life- at the same time being the executor of his will. She understandably refuses, especially when the family proves to be a very uncouth, rude bunch (except Kimberly, and that he doesn't think very highly of them in the least. He offers her a million dollars to be the executor, for charity. Jessica doesn't want it. He instead forces her to stay to convince her to change her mind (the helicopter that took her to the island has left). At a dinner party, he reveals to the family that he has altered his will. Then the lights go out as a storm begins, a scuffle occurs, and everyone runs to find Henry seemingly dead. The first thing everyone except Kimberly does? They grab the will and read it aloud. He leaves them nothing and calls them all with insults- even Kimberly, who is understandably distraught. Everyone accuses Jessica, however, when they learn that Jessica has inherited everything in the will and will either split it evenly amongst his "greedy heirs" or keep it to herself. Sometime later, one things leads to another (and Preston, the victim of the week, is killed) and when Jessica hears the doctor arguing with someone, she goes to find a perfectly fine and healthy Henry. Apparently, Henry orchestrated the whole thing as a sort of Secret Test of Character. He wanted to see how his heirs would react to his death to see if they really cared about him and/or deserve the inheritance, and used Jessica for that. To say that she is furious and his family disillusioned is not accurate (except Kimberly, who is instead so angry that planets could blow up with her stare).
Not once does Henry show any remorse for his actions, and is still rude and dismissive to his family. Even at the end, when the true culprit is found, he refuses to show any sort of kindness or gratitude. He tries to make amends (emphasis on tries, because it doesn't sound genuine) to Kimberly, but she's leaving the island and wants nothing to do with Henry, her family, or anything related to him. He tries to make her stay under the pretense of law enforcement needing her cooperation, or the inheritance, but she absolutely refuses and leaves anyway. He tries to guilttrip Jessica, accusing her. Then this exchange happens.
Well, lessee what happens!
EDIT! I forgot to mention that Henry kept surveillance on every single member of the family, and even hired a private detective to investigate Preston. He apparently wanted to force Kimberly to break it off with Preston. But she didn't care about that. She loved him anyway.
edited 18th May '16 6:36:45 PM by FamFamFamFamFam
I am aware, yes. But Henry is worlds apart from the rest of the rest of the Jerkass people in sheer callousness. The man basically destroys his family and is left alone and bitter. The other Big Bad s at least have some degree of redeeming qualities. Henry is not a murderer, nor a victim. He is simply a Monster!
Maybe, maybe not. I'll let the mods or fellow members vote yes or no. I basically did this to get clarification before adding the entry to the YMMV page. I don't believe Henry fully fills the trope, but no harm in asking.
If you'd like further clarification, the episode is in Netflix right now. I think it's on Youtube as well, but I'm not sure.
Jerkass seems the most fitting one there. But he definitely doesn't fit with Complete Monster.
EDIT: Just ignore this effortpost. Sorry for the waste of a post
Gosh darn, motherfudging piece of CRAP do I HATE Downer Endings. Seriously, I have no capacity for these things. Ugh.
New candidate from a Horror Novel, in case anyone's wondering.
What's the work?
Seeds is a Horror Novel that tells the tale of a man named Jack Winter and his happy-go-lucky family and their wacky adventures!
Except, Jack has a secret. As a preteen, he entered a strange, creepy graveyard one night. All was well, except for the eyes. The pair of eyea that looked like death itself staring holes into him.
Jack went home that night, unknowing that he had been followed. Followed by someone, no, someTHING, that was going to make his life a living Hell. After all, if the legends are to be believed, that's this thing's forte....
Who is he/she/it/whatever?
The unnamed entity is what follows poor Jack back to his home. Maybe he's (Using the male singular henceforth because that's most likely what it is) just a psychic, illusion casting psychopath, maybe he's the freaking Devil himself, but regardless, this asshat is the Big Bad. Gonna call him the Devil henceforth because even if he isn't him, he's wicked enough to be.
What has he done?
The Devil begins making Jack's life a living nightmare, keeping him up at night by sending slivering rats and snakes across his skin, possessing him at various times to make him terrify the townsfolk, and doing things like using his abilities to cause Jack's mother to throw boiling oil all over herself.
He also forces him to strangle a cat and string it up for his mom to find, so yeah.
After years of this crap and his parents' both near psychosis due to him, Jack finally flees his home....right after the Devil made him literally butcher and cannabilize his own parents.
Jack then catches a ride from a stranger who drops him off in a different town, where he restarts his life, unaware of what he did to his parents, and believing he's finally free of the Devil's tricks.
Decades later, Jack has a family: His wife, Aimee; His eldest daughter, Abby (Aged 10); And his little ray of sunshine, Charlie (Aged 6).
Of course THIS couldn't last, and the Devil returns to Jack's life, making him have a car accident with his family, giving the Devil the oppurtunity to....enter(?) Charlie's mind in the ensuing panic.
Now doing to Charlie what he did to Jack, the Devil slowly drives the poor girl insane, and does the whole possessing eer into doing bad things, then blaming it on someone else, like her sister.
Weeks of this follow, with Charlie slowly being taken over by the Devil. This culminates in Charlie shoving the loyal family dog, Nubs, into the path of a UPS truck, bisecting the thing (God, I hate animal deaths).
Now terrorizing the ENTIRE family, the Devil makes his final move when Jack returns to his hometown to learn what REALLY happened to his parents. It is there that Jack learns the truth: The night he fled his home, the Devil possessed him one last time, and forced him to literally butcher, tear apart, and cannabalize his own parents.
Realizing the Devil's scheme, Jack returns home to find that Charlie and Abby have gone missing, and Jack quickly tracks them into the woods.
Jack finds Charlie covered in blood, and (Sigh) sees Abby is dead.
Jack freaks while the Devil, now fully controlling Charlie, mocks him. Jack decides to end it all by stabbing Charlie with a knife, however the Devil uses the old "Don't hurt me, Daddy" on him, and the freaking idiot believes it, leading to him being stabbed 90 freaking times. He dies, needless to say.
The Devil then uses Charlie to (Somehow) decapitate her own mother, before fleeing the town.
The "horrifying" (I say that lightly) truth is then revealed that the Devil is the same stranger that picked up Jack after his murder of his parents, and now, doing the same to Charlie, it is revealed that this is apparently the Devil's "M.O."
And that's it. It endswith the implication that Charlie's going to grow up, get a family of her own, and then, just like with Jack, the Devil will return to possess HER child.
F. Me.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
He's the freaking Devil. Or maybe he's just some stranger with demonic powers. I don't know, man. Regardless, nothing redeeming or any of that bull.
Heinousness?
If he really is the Devil, he's admittedly not one of the badder renditions of him in media (In terms of massaffectingstuff, at least) but that's because there's no "He's the king of Hell" or "He influences thousands of people". As far as the story goes, he's basically a Serial Killer who possesses children to commit his crimes. So, with that in mind, I think he makes it.
Pretty sure we've said that unless it's made explicitly clear a demon is Made of Evil, we're to assume it isn't. And nothing like that is present here. Sure, it's called evil and all that junk, but it's never stated it is the personification of it.
For Pete's sake, the Devil's final words to Jack before butchering him, after Jack simply asked him "Why?" Are:
"Because I can".
Final Verdict?
.
Man, I hated this thing's ending.
edited 18th May '16 7:42:40 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Devil (?). This sounds like borderline creepypasta trash. Then again, this isn't the first time you've proposed incredibly disgusting villains before from stories that do have a purpose behind them, so I'll assume that this isn't just a lengthy adventure of this entity possessing people and doing horribly graphic things because the author says so.
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Sometimes I think they work, but other times notsomuch. I'd refuse to play a video game with a Downer Ending, for one (like that Witch;s House thing, remember that?) because those require personal investment from the consumer.
edited 18th May '16 7:26:40 PM by HamburgerTime
Not even close to Creepypasta or Serbian Film level stuff. There is no outright Gorn or Torture Porn, and it's a legit horror novel. I'd recommend it if I wasn't fuming at the ending.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

I've said it before: works with this sort of jacked-up episodic heinousness standard are really hard to vote on. Once it starts becoming a matter of finicky little details ("yeah but he stabbed them in the eye"), the whole thing seems a bit hard to distinguish any character from the rest.
edited 18th May '16 2:31:24 PM by nrjxll