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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58576: May 10th 2016 at 5:50:23 PM

Personally I think "contains non-canonical incest" is all the evidence I need that it's a darkfic. Since once again, in real life, incest is usually indicative of the people involved being pretty screwed up.

If that's what people wanna read, fine, go ahead. I won't pretend I haven't read some pretty goddamn weird stuff in my day. Including, yeah, that kind of fanfiction. But you don't see me bringing it up here.

edited 10th May '16 5:51:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58577: May 10th 2016 at 5:51:44 PM

For the last time, this is not about Dark Fic. I don't know why everyone keeps saying it is when that's not even the reason this discussion started.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58578: May 10th 2016 at 5:55:28 PM

@ Camberf: The really over-the-top Fate Worse than Death given to Gralo is what made me pause, even though it doesn't sound like he does anything too disgusting.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58579: May 10th 2016 at 5:56:27 PM

edited 10th May '16 5:58:06 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58580: May 10th 2016 at 5:57:11 PM

[up] I have to ask: this character was already majority-voted down. Why do you seem so ironclad on his inclusion?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#58581: May 10th 2016 at 5:58:02 PM

[up]Ditto. I'm honestly starting to get reminded of that guy who seemed to posting mostly to shill a porn comic a few days ago.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58582: May 10th 2016 at 5:59:02 PM

Frankly I don't even get the objection that we're making value judgements. When we cut works like A Serbian Film and The Human Centipede we were making a value judgement about them. And nobody really seemed to object to that. I don't know why this kind of fanfiction is apparently more worthy of defense than actual films were.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58583: May 10th 2016 at 5:59:31 PM

I didn't want to be the first person to say anything about Clown-Face defending the fic.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#58584: May 10th 2016 at 5:59:46 PM

Distasteful as it might be, we do need to give all characters a fair shake of it...even if after this I would heartily recommend anyone and everyone take a good, hard look at what they're proposing and make a few considerations based on that.

....this is a little different than a gay furry porn comic, I'd contend, which I am never, ever, ever going to look at no matter how good someone tells me the plot is.

Serbian F Ilm and Human Centipede are different. Entirely. Those have no purpose to exist but to shock and disgust. And anyone who says A Serbian Film has deep political meaning is heartily invited to shut the fuck up.

And can we not sound like we're picking on Clown Face, here? A number of us read/watch/whatever Game of Thrones or things which has, to date, graphic rape, infanticide, ephebophilia and incest that is extremely detailed at points, among a great many other things...god knows I've proposed my share of examples from things with somewhat questionable content.

edited 10th May '16 6:02:37 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58585: May 10th 2016 at 6:00:53 PM

[up] We did give him a shake and voted him down. The matter just doesn't seem to die.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58587: May 10th 2016 at 6:02:44 PM

[up] I see. [tup] to Gralo then and the other four. Not budging on my [tdown] for everyone else.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#58588: May 10th 2016 at 6:02:51 PM

........Clearly I missed a lot today. O__O

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58589: May 10th 2016 at 6:03:29 PM

Yes, yes you have.

edited 10th May '16 6:03:57 PM by AustinDR

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58590: May 10th 2016 at 6:05:14 PM

And can we not sound like we're picking on Clown Face, here? A number of us read/watch/whatever Game of Thrones or things which has, to date, graphic rape, infanticide, ephebophilia and incest that is extremely detailed at points, among a great many other things...god knows I've proposed my share of examples from things with somewhat questionable content.

I'm a little astonished you said this Lighty. You should understand by now why most of us voted down Ulfric.

And no one is stepping over any site rules about Clown-Face.

edited 10th May '16 6:06:09 PM by VeryMelon

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58591: May 10th 2016 at 6:05:55 PM

@Lightysnake

Personally I don't think that a fanfic that features Ana and Elsa (or Sam and Dean or Sasuke and Itachi or pick your siblings) in an incestuous relationship is all that better than The Human Centipede. It's a different kind of shock value, sure, but it's not really that different.

I mean, yeah, there's incest in ASOIAF but both the Targaryens and Jaime & Cersei are pretty emphatically screwed up and we're not meant to look at any of those relationships and go, yeah, that's One True Love right there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#58592: May 10th 2016 at 6:06:04 PM

I'm aware of that. It just sounded a bit too much like we're on his back there.

And there is a very firm difference between those and Human Centipede. And I say this as someone who is firmly in your camp on the matter of how not right it is. Nevertheless, there is a major difference between an incestuous relationship and a film about a scientist sewing people's mouths to other people's rear ends and nothing else

edited 10th May '16 6:07:50 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58593: May 10th 2016 at 6:07:15 PM

[up] Wasn't trying to be. I'm curious whenever anyone tries to dig an already-settled case back up.

In any case, he deleted the post.

edited 10th May '16 6:07:39 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58595: May 10th 2016 at 6:09:15 PM

[up] Concurred. Now, settling the MLP list? My votes are thus.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58596: May 10th 2016 at 6:10:55 PM

Guys, stop harping on me. After all, I'm a fifteen year old clown, so I definitely shouldn't be held to the same standards as everyone else!tongue

...In all seriousness, though, it's less that we're [tdown] Ulfric and more the reasons why we're doing it that I find kind of screwy. I mean, nobody else has actually taken a look at the fanfic.

On other news, is anyone else going to weigh in on Mana Ouma? I'm leaning towards a no on her.

edited 10th May '16 6:11:46 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58597: May 10th 2016 at 6:11:39 PM

I keep coming back to it not because of anything against the person who proposed it, but because I think the example is emblematic of the issue we have in fanfic. According to Clown-Face it's a pretty well-written story that doesn't think it's just going to shock value. I believe him. Problem is, it's still a fic that had the two leads engage in non-canonical incest for whatever reason, then threw in a rape for good measure.

A fanfic can be well-written, and properly edited, and have ambitions beyond shock value, and still end up completely missing the point of the series it purports to represent and/or crossing the boundaries of good taste. Disney Princess incest and rape is an example of that.

I have literally nothing against Clown-Face. In my personal opinion, they've been as productive and reasonable a member of the forum as anybody else. The fic in question is just a really good example of my overarching problem with the genre as a whole and with examples from it.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58598: May 10th 2016 at 6:11:40 PM

[up][up] Could you link to the effortpost?

edited 10th May '16 6:12:00 PM by HamburgerTime

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58599: May 10th 2016 at 6:13:16 PM

My votes: [1]. I'll abstain from Mana.

edited 10th May '16 6:16:02 PM by AustinDR

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58600: May 10th 2016 at 6:14:39 PM

The talk for Mana Ouma began here.

edited 10th May '16 6:18:51 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?

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