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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58501: May 10th 2016 at 1:43:15 PM

[up][up][up]It featured non-canonical incest. If it's not there to offend it's there because someone has a genuinely creepy fetish.

As for why it's popular—I repeat a comment from several pages back. It is popular among people who cannot comprehend there being close relationships that are not romantic.

edited 10th May '16 1:44:08 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#58502: May 10th 2016 at 1:44:38 PM

But what about something that just happens to include a villain who rapes and kills a la Kirby in a reimagining?

Yeah. I mean, I hate to sound at all like I'm defending that Ulfric character's existence - but what if he had been from something that was explicitly written as Frozen in the style of A Song of Ice and Fire? (Which I can easily imagine someone writing - though not in a way that wasn't tongue-in-cheek).

Edit: I don't think voting is a useful technique here, but for the record, I vote no to all three of those. These fanfics are shit, but I haven't yet seen any argument to convince me that they are uniquely shit in a fashion that justifies treating them differently from everything else the thread does.

edited 10th May '16 1:47:08 PM by nrjxll

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#58503: May 10th 2016 at 1:48:18 PM

Wow. This fan fic thing is really going on and on. Anyway, I'm in favour of Ravok's rule, I have no stake whatsoever in the Kirby thing, but I'll toss out a [tup] for keeping him. I agree with VeryMelon that Disney would never have incestuous lesbian rape (I know that specifically is not the point of the post, but still). Maybe a lesbian character, eventually, sure, but not the other two things.

@Clown-Face: I don't get it either (although I will allow that some of the fan art I've come across looks nice enough if you can somehow suppress the incest vibe). Shipping is weird.

Oh, and before I forget, [tup] to Admiral Vlict Krenka and The Falconer (I gather that this Locke person is The Protagonist?).

[tup] to Number 1; [tdown] to Number 2; slightly conflicted, but I'll say [tup] to Number 3.

edited 10th May '16 1:53:18 PM by DeCarta

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58504: May 10th 2016 at 1:49:21 PM

1: [tdown] 2. [tdown] 3: [tup]

edited 10th May '16 2:38:54 PM by AustinDR

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58505: May 10th 2016 at 1:50:36 PM

Ok, we're arguing in circles here, so let's just do this like we do most things: Vote.

Number 1: All those in favor of the new rule that a fanfiction cannot surpass the original media in heinousness, vote [tup] (Or Yes). All those against, vote [tdown] (Or No).

Number 2: All those in favor of purging the MLP fanfic examples in one fell swoop, vote [tup] (Or Yes). All those against, vote [tdown] (Or No).

Number 3: All those in favor of purging the Pokémon fanfic examples in one fell swoop, vote [tup] (Or Yes). All those against, vote [tdown] (Or No).

Once we've established whether to purge them in one fell swoop, or not, then we can decide which ones to cut or keep.

Good idea that I'm for.

Number 1: [tup]

Number 2: [tup]

Number 3: [tup]

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58506: May 10th 2016 at 1:54:00 PM

"Yes" to 1. For 2 & 3, we should probably go through one at a time, agonizing as that may be.

@De Carta

Yes, Locke's the protagonist.

@njrxll

Say what you will about bad movies, bad books, etc, but at least they aren't violating their own damn canon when they do shit like this. Bad fanfiction does.

edited 10th May '16 1:55:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#58507: May 10th 2016 at 1:55:03 PM

Number 1: [tdown] I feel if it doesn't go too far, it can work if it surpasses the heinous standards of the original.

Number 2: Abstaining. There seem to be some acceptable monsters listed there.

Number 3: [tup]

edited 10th May '16 1:55:49 PM by Awesomekid42

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#58508: May 10th 2016 at 1:55:07 PM

I approve of 1. For 2 and 3... God, I hate to say it, but if we want to preserve objectivity, I'll follow up on Njr and Ambar and say we should probably take a deeper look at each.

Colt, though... I honestly think we can cut with no tears shed.

edited 10th May '16 2:00:16 PM by Scraggle

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#58509: May 10th 2016 at 1:55:13 PM

I think there is a huge middle ground between CM being badge of honor and giving time on this thread to worse garbage on the Internet, it's best to focus on this middle ground.

I can't stand Transformers Revenge of the Fallen, but it still passable enough to review on this thread, compared to something like Cupcakes. I don't think people here want to send hours on end reviewing super grim dark MLP fics that are edgy for edgy sake.

I will votes yes on 1, 2 and 3.

edited 10th May '16 1:59:46 PM by Overlord

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#58510: May 10th 2016 at 1:55:17 PM

[tdown] purging EVERYTHING MLP since there are at least a handful of examples that I feel work (Mainly Appleox and Checker Monarch), but I'm unsure about purging all the Pokemon examples. I'm leaning towards a [tup], but I'd like some clarification about the setting Masque is from since he's the candidate I have the least problem with.

EDIT: After some thought, [tdown] to the new fanfic rule. Echoing a previous sentiment, I feel that if it doesn't go too far, a fic can surpass an original work's heinous standard.

edited 10th May '16 1:57:03 PM by FriedWarthog

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58512: May 10th 2016 at 1:57:52 PM

[up][up][up]Exactly. A long time ago, we voted up the witch from The Black Death. I hated that movie. I think it's utter trash. But it has its own damn world, its own damn plot, its own damn canon with which it can do what it will.

Conversely, I am not interested in wasting time on someone who thinks having horses from a show aimed at six year old girls rape each other, is edgy or mature or anything really. We don't owe the people who write this garbage anything. If we can decide to avoid most slasher movie villains because of the nature of the genre, and decide that if a film itself is bad enough we won't discuss it (which we've done in the past) we can sure as hell not give the time of day to writers of terrible fanfiction.

Some people are saying we aren't being fair. To that I say—what if we aren't? Writers of bad fanfiction are not a protected minority group. We are not obligated to have a certain quota of monsters from their works.

edited 10th May '16 1:59:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#58513: May 10th 2016 at 1:59:54 PM

I think there is a huge middle ground between CM being badge of honor and giving time on this thread to worse garbage on the Internet, it's best to focus on this middle ground.

See, not treating it like a priority would be fine. I've asked certain people more than once in the past to knock it off with bringing up crappy amateur works. What bothers me is formally instituting a quality guideline.

I'm still failing to see a single argument explaining why this is a case deserving special treatment other than "it's disgusting." Which, yes, it is - but so are plenty of original works that we're not treating similarly.

edited 10th May '16 2:03:51 PM by nrjxll

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58514: May 10th 2016 at 2:03:06 PM

[up]Why not? We removed the villain from A Serbian Film for being trashy torture porn. We removed The Human Centipede for being trashy torture porn. And those were actual films, with actual budgets, and their own canon.

If we can cut those, why on earth should bad fanfiction be exempt? I mean, I loathe The Human Centipede but its a real film with real actors and its ideas, while disgusting, are certainly original. If we can cut that for being nothing but torture porn, why not cut this garbage for being torture porn, given that it's just as trashy, but lacks even the redeeming quality of being original work?

EDIT: Again, we are not obligated to have examples from any particular form of media. If people want to draw the line at this particular form of media, I'm all for it.

And for the record, I once read an MLP/Warhammer 40K crossover that managed to keep more to the spirit of the respective series than most of the garbage we seem to have on the MLP page here.

edited 10th May '16 2:07:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#58516: May 10th 2016 at 2:06:37 PM

[up][up]That's sort of a strawman, though, because it's not just Torture Porn that people are talking about cutting. Absolutely no one wants to preserve plotless gorny trash; that's been the case for ages. But what's being talked about now is creating a formal rule about heinousness in fanfics in general - and one that I'm already seeing being applied inconsistently to "reimaginings".

EDIT: Again, we are not obligated to have examples from any particular form of media. If people want to draw the line at this particular form of media, I'm all for it.

...Isn't one of the fundamental principles of TV Tropes that we can have examples from any particular form of media (except when explicitly prohibited by TPTB)? This thread exists to prevent the previously enormously widespread misuse of Complete Monster, not to be its all-purpose example police.

edited 10th May '16 2:09:36 PM by nrjxll

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58517: May 10th 2016 at 2:06:57 PM

Maybe because those fics aren't just torture porn?

Why so serious?
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#58518: May 10th 2016 at 2:07:18 PM

@ Ravok: Some of us did already vote on Ambar's proposal, but sure.

[tup] to 1. Let's handle MLP and Pokemon case by case for fairness sake.

This discussion incidentally reminded me of that point of contention about Fridge Logic during the whole FIS!Tirek famine debate. Anyone else think a point of clarification about that issue would be a worthwhile addition to the FAQ?

Can a villain qualify on the basis of Fridge Horror?
Absolutely not. We only judge a character based on what they do (or intend to do) in-story, and an Inferred Holocaust is clearly not what the work was going for. See also above about Alternate Character Interpretation.

edited 10th May '16 2:23:22 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58519: May 10th 2016 at 2:10:53 PM

[up][up]A fic that wants to have non-canon incest is porn of some kind—regardless of whether there's onscreen sex or not. The fetish fuel pages got burned for a reason. A bunch of other sex related pages did too. I see no issue in not allowing fanfic up based on that.

@njrxll

I fail to see how its being inconsistently applied to re-imaginings. The author of the fic that Clown-Face brought up, which got this whole thing rolling in the first place, at no point claimed that it was a re-imagining. They wrote it like it's the canon universe.

And quite frankly, if it's cut stuff like TWBB or keep trash like this, I'm in favour of burning it all. Heck, I'd burn all fanfiction examples period before having to deal with any more trash like this.

We have all worked incredibly long and incredibly hard at bringing a degree of respectability back to this trope. Every time that we allow another bad taste, "canon siblings are boning", rape-and-gore fanfic from something like MLP or Frozen or what have you, we chip away at that respectability and credibility.

edited 10th May '16 2:11:04 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#58520: May 10th 2016 at 2:11:56 PM

@ njrxll, but it's a very basic quality standard, considering I would allow Transformers Revenge of the Fallen to pass and that may be my most hated movie ever.

CM was considered a badge of honor because it makes a character cool and edgy and these works are trying to apply dark and edgy characters to settings that don't support them, giving these works the time of day seems to give them a badge if honor.

edited 10th May '16 2:13:18 PM by Overlord

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58521: May 10th 2016 at 2:13:26 PM

[tup] 1, [tdown] 2 (and it's a very narrow [tdown]), [tup] 3 except Masque.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#58522: May 10th 2016 at 2:14:44 PM

Whatever. I'm done. Like someone else said earlier, the existence of an entire subpage for a series that's supposed to be aimed at young girls is not a hill I want to die on. I think the underlying principles are important, but if no one else sees them I'm not sure I want to waste any more time arguing for them.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#58523: May 10th 2016 at 2:16:54 PM

Alright. I think we can comfortably put the fanfic rule(s) into effect. Are we handling the sub-page examples case-by-case? If that's the case, what about the rest of the fan works on the main page that have likely never gone through the thread?

I'll also [tup] Morgenthaler's Fridge Horror rule.

edited 10th May '16 2:17:30 PM by Scraggle

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58524: May 10th 2016 at 2:18:55 PM

[up]We should go through them as well. If it hasn't gone through the thread we need to reexamine it.

edited 10th May '16 2:19:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#58525: May 10th 2016 at 2:31:00 PM

[tup] to all three, with the caveat that anything cut from the MLP or Poke sections is eligible for somebody to resubmit them individually through this process if they feel strongly enough. I think that's the least work, and still allows the ones that really oughtta be there to be there.


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