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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#58376: May 10th 2016 at 6:35:00 AM

@ ACW: Looks good, but personally I'd change it to "Majora: Fails the moral agency test as it operates on Blue-and-Orange Morality".

Regarding the whole fanfic debate, I have a question: one of the rules we established for dealing with this ridiculous stuff is that "The setting must be conducive to having a Complete Monster" (emphasis mine), but we have an entire page for My Little Pony Fan Works. The only character from that franchise who was ever deemed to meet the criteria was from a TV special which if I'm not mistaken is in an entirely different continuity from the work that actually inspires nearly all of those fics, My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, which is its own Lighter and Softer setting.

We've consistently deemed that this show ever having a CM goes directly against its overarching theme of The Power of Friendship and Defeat Means Friendship, and nobody possibly being beyond redemption, so why we are we hosting examples based on that show? It's like hosting an example from a fanfic based on the 60s Batman show where Cesar Romero's Harmless Villain incarnation of The Joker is turned into a mass-murdering psycho sadist because "Well, we have examples from the (completely seperate and tonally different) comics and films, so why not?"

edited 10th May '16 6:38:52 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#58377: May 10th 2016 at 6:44:26 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna say cut Mana...I think there're way too many issues on further review.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58378: May 10th 2016 at 7:11:14 AM

Morganthaler: Probably because Friendship is Magic is more is capable of handling drama, despite allegedly being Lighter and Softer. The show has its serious moments and villains to go with it, it's just yet to have a villain that fits the CM bill. This show also as a demographic that expands beyond its intended target audience, thus having mature oriented fanfiction is to be expected (unfortunately this also means we get Creepypasta wannabe stories that bastardizes certain characters and gets more memic status than it deserves but I digress). Really don't see the problem with keeping the MLP fanworks page; the show could have CM's in it, it just yet to actually have one.

edited 10th May '16 7:14:30 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#58379: May 10th 2016 at 7:15:05 AM

I find it hard to take the fandom seriously when something called 'Scootabuse' exists

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58380: May 10th 2016 at 7:23:36 AM

Every fandom has a few deviant members.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58381: May 10th 2016 at 7:26:44 AM

Tis the fault of memes.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#58382: May 10th 2016 at 7:32:50 AM

Morgenthaler: The problem with that is operating on B&O morality doesn't mean they lack moral agency, it just means they operate on a different kind.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#58383: May 10th 2016 at 7:33:23 AM

Every fandom has porn and ridiculous people.

Might as well take zero fandoms seriously. But then again, the fandom isn't all that important unless it causes trouble within the site you're visiting at best. That's pretty easy to report and fix.

What they do in their own time is really not relevant or an issue until it affects you or the site you're on anyway. At best.

Shadow?
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#58384: May 10th 2016 at 7:53:23 AM

@ Beast: Remember that being lighthearted doesn't mean it has to treat everything inconsequentially. Even a show aimed at 6 year old girls can be expected to have the occasional Aesop or Tear Jerker. I simply have trouble believing any of the fandom's claims about its ability to have a CM when they've been trying to convince us of that for years.

Given the earlier understandable critique on the ridiculousness of having an example from a fic based on a Disney movie that features two incestuous sisters and a psycho who rapes one of them, I don't see the difference here. It's not like Frozen had no dramatic moments in the actual film, so I think "Well, MLP does have some drama" is an irrelevant argument.

To take a small sampling from that page (and again, compare the earlier Frozen example), I'm supposed to believe that the setting of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is conducive to having a villain who stomps a child to death before graphically gutting someone who was too horrified to do it themselves, a mobster who shoots a pregnant woman and her unborn baby, a guy who brainwashes and marries his own daughter, or a mad tyrant who has someone burned and raped to death at the same time?

edited 10th May '16 8:08:38 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58385: May 10th 2016 at 7:58:06 AM

Edit: never mind.

I can't really speak for those fanfic examples, but like I said, having an older fanbase tends to lend more mature rated fanfics.

edited 10th May '16 8:06:05 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58386: May 10th 2016 at 7:58:52 AM

On the subject of the Frozen fanfic example, I should note that, aside from the obvious, the story tries to have some connection to the film. Anna is actually in a relationship with Kristoff in the beginning, and side-character show up as well with similar roles as they had in the film.

Ulfric and Anna and Elsa's incest, while very major, are the only real main deviations.

Why so serious?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58387: May 10th 2016 at 8:00:25 AM

[up][up]That's all magical, fantasy stuff that can be appropriate viewing for kids.

Do you really think it's at all the same as what Morgenthaler was talking about in some of the Pony fanfics he bought up?

edited 10th May '16 8:03:51 AM by VeryMelon

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#58388: May 10th 2016 at 8:08:30 AM

If anything, I just think that a fanfic that tries to establish its own setting without going into offensive subject matter (like including rape in a show like Care Bears, for example), I see nothing wrong here.

edited 10th May '16 8:11:32 AM by AustinDR

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#58389: May 10th 2016 at 8:14:10 AM

I think if it's not doing these things just to offend people, there shouldn't be much of an issue.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#58390: May 10th 2016 at 8:53:05 AM

Speaking of DARK kids' show villains: Hello Nibiru Entity (and Pericles).

edited 10th May '16 8:53:15 AM by ACW

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#58391: May 10th 2016 at 8:55:35 AM

I don't care about most of the MLP entries, but I would defend the two I've read- Ask Jappleack and The Night the Magic Died as being legitimate.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58392: May 10th 2016 at 8:56:10 AM

I'm going to second what Morgenthaler said. We may not be able to say that the MLP setting can't have a CM, but I think we can safely say that it can't have a certain kind of CM. If someone wrote a fanfic in which a character was willing to blow up the country, in true, kid's show fashion, that character could probably qualify. Killing pregnant women? Stomping kids to death? That's not something that would ever happen in the actual show. I say we torch any that get up to that sort of idiocy—or for that matter that feature any sex, graphic violence, or other things that would never be in the original source material.

Same thing applies to the Frozen one. Could a Disney film have a CM? Absolutely. We've got a whole page of them. Would the character be a rapist and a torturer? Not a chance in hell.

@Clown-Face

You can't write-off non-canonical incest as a minor change. It's a massive change in characterization, and one that, as previously noted, misses the entire point of the original film. Simply by including it, the author has distorted the characters of Ana and Elsa so much as to be effectively unrecognizable.

@Silverblade

Vampires in Buffy may lose their souls, but they are still capable of caring about some people. The Master cares about Darla. Spike cares about Drusilla. Etc, etc. Angelus' complete and total sociopathy is unusual, even by vampiric standards, and it's something that's commented on by the Master, Spike, and numerous others who used to know him.

@ACW

Capa Raza's family was murdered on the orders of Capa Barsavi after his father discovered Barsavi's Secret Peace (the deal between Barsavi and the Duke of Camorr that keeps the thieves from preying on the nobility). Only Raza and his twin sisters escaped. Raza's goal is now to eliminate Barsavi, as well as anybody who benefited from the existence of the Secret Peace, since he views them all as complicit in the deaths of his family.

Quoth Raza: "If I could I would burn this city to the ground and write the names of my family in the ashes."

edited 10th May '16 9:19:25 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#58393: May 10th 2016 at 9:00:36 AM

@ACW I'm probably not the guy to do an effort post for it (been a while since I've seen the show), but Pericles and Nibiru would be easy [tup]s for me, I think.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58394: May 10th 2016 at 9:01:52 AM

The Nibiru Entity's already up and Pericles was voted down.

edited 10th May '16 9:02:15 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Monessi Since: Nov, 2010
#58395: May 10th 2016 at 9:03:40 AM

Ah, gotcha. I'm guessing Pericles got vetoed on the Freudian Excuse front since he was good in the other timeline?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#58396: May 10th 2016 at 9:06:02 AM

Pretty much.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#58397: May 10th 2016 at 9:33:04 AM

Thanks Ambar. Yeah, while he may overdo it, that's a HELL of a mitigating factor.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#58398: May 10th 2016 at 9:58:44 AM

Is there a write up to use or anything for proposing characters be cut if its not because of something like an overlooked excuse or agency issue and instead new(ish) information?

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#58399: May 10th 2016 at 10:03:57 AM

It should be noted that the officially licensed MLP comics can get quite a bit darker than the show. How much of the comics should be considered canon for the show is a matter of contention, but since it's official it should probably be taken into consideration when looking at fan fics. Still nothing as horrid as rape or gorn, though.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#58400: May 10th 2016 at 10:09:49 AM

[up]Again, it's not that I doubt the series could have a CM, just that I doubt it could have one that fits the mold we seem to have filled the fanfic page with.


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