During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Falconer
Wild Child
Falconer.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It was explained that Nouva Shenron turned out being less evil than the other shadow dragons was because he was spawn from a selfish wish (King Piccolo wishing for his youth to be restored) thus producing less negative energy.
5 votes for the Falconer, not counting my own. And I'll echo what Lightysnake said about Grey King/Capa Raza. Bastard he may be, but he in no way qualifies for this trope. Unlike the Falconer, Raza has every reason to be mad at the world, and everything he does follows logically—if disproportionately—from that anger. Also unlike Falconer, he has people he actually gives a damn about.
edited 9th May '16 8:12:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
When does a villains count as a made of evil? I mean some incarnations of the devil don't count, and yes I know I asked this before, but I didn't get much of a response.
Well King Piccolo is literally the Anthropomorphic Personification of the negative qualities of someone else, so he certainly doesn't have agency.
At least in my opinion (as someone who lurks in this thread more than posts in it), I'd call Made of Evil a disqualifier if a). the character is explicitly an incarnation of evil/chaos/destruction/corruption etc. (on a large scale like a God of Evil, or on a small scale like a demon) and b). is incapable of changing their nature to become something else (the Dark One from The Wheel of Time is a good example of this; Rand's "The Reason You Suck" Speech delivered to it in the last book heavily features the Dark One's static nature as a point in its argument). Gods of Evil typically qualify only if the either used to be good or could become good if they wanted (ie, the Devil as a fallen angel; Morgoth is an example of a CM like this and is essentially a variation of the Christian Satan). Examples where the character is currently some sort of malevolent entity but used to be a normal human and voluntarily chose to become what they are now have been voted up in the past, however (the Red King from The Dresden Files is one; Kerrigor from Sabriel is another). If we're talking exceptional members of Always Chaotic Evil species, those in my experience tend to get voted down (unless the previous statement applies), though personally I'm of the opinion that if a creature's evil goes above and beyond what it's nature demands, it should be capable of qualifying.
That remidns me...did Chytrine from the Fortress Draconis series ever get a writeup?
Don't believe so; I never got around to doing one, and she doesn't look to be on the CM Literature page. I think she got enough votes to qualify, right?
Quite easily at that.
I think we've just got that and Balendin outstanding on the fantasy to-do
for Vlict and Falconer.
Well ever since Majora was voted down yesterday due to Orange and Blue Morality I've been looking at other C Ms we approved to see if there was any disqualifications and someone, I won't say their name, emailed me from villains wiki saying that Mana Ouma a character anime Guilty Crown I proposed and got approved said that she should have gotten approved due to militating factors.
This is what the person wrote:
"Hi G-Monster<—(That is my account on Wikia), I noticed a revert of my recent edit to this page which you conducted that I do not agree with, when it comes to the classification of Mana as a "Complete Monster", due to the fact that Mana's entire personality and all associated psychopathic traits were entirely the result of her infection with the Apocalypse Virus, and prior to her resurrection, she seemed to want to try to stop herself from spreading the virus and causing the destruction she did, at least at times, and immediately before her first "death" she showed significant fear about "becoming something she wasn't", i.e. she was terrified of becoming more evil. To me, I think it is very clear that "Complete Monster" should be replaced with "Possessed/Brainwashed" and "Tragic Villain", both relating to the effect the Apocalypse virus had on her, even though she was an outright villain."
Now, before you guys judge me saying we don't have anything to do with villains wiki, but I looked over the anime episodes of Guilty Crown containing her. Turns out she was just a regular girl before the virus infected her, and her actions toward everyone and made the tragic event was due to the virus tampering. While she claims to have full control over the virus it the other way around with the virus infecting her mind, and deep down showed hints of regret and remorse of what she was becoming because of the virus. With that, it has come to my attention that we cut her so I ask you guy do you think she should be cut due to these factors?
edited 9th May '16 9:55:34 PM by G-Editor
um its nature involves it being evil, so I don't understand how they can go beyond their nature if they are literally made of nothing but evil, is it possible for mutations or evil creations to count?
edited 9th May '16 9:53:30 PM by Mediawatcher
Characters who are Made of Evil are disqualified if they lack moral agency. If the character cannot choose to be anything other than evil, the character cannot count.
To pick an obvious example, in Tolkein's works, Melkor and Sauron were voted up because they chose to be what they are. Melkor invented the concept of evil in that universe, and Sauron signed on with him willingly. In contrast, Glaurung was voted down because he's a tool of Melkor's, bred and built to be little more than an enforcer of Melkor's will. The same goes for the other dragons, the orcs, trolls, etc. If you're standing far enough back from what Melkor's creations do—which admittedly has to be pretty damn far—it's even possible to feel bad for them, given how little choice they really have.
In another example, none of the demons in Pathfinder can qualify, because demons are, with rare exceptions, created from amalgamations of evil souls, and as such, cannot be said to truly have agency, or a say in their personality. The devils, as creations of Asmodeus, likewise lack a say in their own nature. Daemons, however, who form from individual evil souls can qualify, and indeed, the only evil deity from that setting to make the list is the greater daemon Szuriel, Horsewoman of War.
edited 9th May '16 10:11:38 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
How about something like this? The character lost his moral agency, but they knew what would've happened if they took the power, made the sacrifice, and made the deal, but still went with it, they lost their moral agency completly but they knew that was gonna happen and still said yes to it. Do they still count?
I'm using Griffith as an example, since he seems to have lost his moral understanding but still made the deal.
edited 9th May '16 10:16:57 PM by Mediawatcher
IDK. In Buffy, vampires are explicitely Always Chaotic Evil, being people who lost their souls yet Angelus counts as a CM. Is it because he's evil even by vampire standards?
edited 9th May '16 11:26:53 PM by Silverblade2
So, do you guys think Mana Ouma should be cut, due to the Apocalypse Virus infecting her body and mind, making her actions not entirely her fault?
edited 10th May '16 12:02:32 AM by G-Editor
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Yeah. Look at his "game" with Jenny Calendar and Giles.
- Breddell and Vlict.
- Falconer (out of curiosity, what's Raza's Freudian Excuse?)
edited 10th May '16 1:54:19 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I remember nothing whatsoever about this character being discussed except that the consensus was pretty clearly that it did not affect her moral agency. If there's legitimate points that were missed, they can be brought up, but I'm not sure it's okay to just try and reverse a discussion otherwise. Particularly if someone from another site is trying to use you as a proxy, which could well be in violation of some policy.
edited 10th May '16 3:17:26 AM by nrjxll
to the Falconer.
@58357
But Piccolo Jr, King Piccolo's reincarnation, was in the same boat as that. And he was still able to change his ways.
Wild Child
On the subject of Mana Ouma, who I was starting to doubt qualified, I'd like to point out that one of her actions listed is killing millions of people with the Apocalypse Virus. However, having seen the scene, not only did it appear to be unintentional, but Mana was clearly horrified by this and was trying to stop it.
I'm not voting for or against her at the moment, but I did think that was something to take note of.
edited 10th May '16 4:16:05 AM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Lizzid people!
It feels like she got over being horrified about what she had done from what I'm gathering.
Wild Child
Yeah, but I feel that should've been brought up, since her write-up makes it look like she did it intentionally.
Why so serious?
I know that we didn't include Syn Shenron because he's Made of Evil but seeing as how in the Dragon Ball series, at least two characters who were Made of Evil, Piccolo (yes it was Piccolo Jr rather than Demon King Piccolo, but he's a reincarnation rather than simply a son, and is still treated as Kami's evil half) and Nuova Shenron, made a Heel–Face Turn I don't think characters who are Made of Evil in the Dragon Ball series would have moral agency issues like in other series.
(Not sure if Syn's heinous enough either way though)
edited 9th May '16 7:30:19 PM by Awesomekid42