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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5801: Dec 18th 2012 at 1:55:05 PM

You remember Roald Dahl wrote a book about an entire race of witches that makes killing as many children as possible their mission in life?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#5803: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:22:03 PM

Well, then Agatha fails the heinous standard because of the Witches being much worse (them being disqualified for violating "no group" rule).

@ Fighteer

Yes, I am talking about The Elenium. I haven't read the Tamuli either. And yes, he has a very limited screen-time but the horrible rituals that his followers perform are onscreen. However, three strikes against him.

Firstly, he is a God of Evil and I don't know if is it possible to be both this and a Complete Monster.

Secondly, he barely understands humans thus maybe he is incapable of judging moral standards.

Finally, again The Devil Is The Looser.

And with Zadramas, Fighteer just because she gets You Monster! treatment, does not qualify her; we've disqualified many characters getting this treatment already.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#5804: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:22:56 PM

[up] The Witches isn't in the same world as Matilda, though, is it?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5805: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:24:18 PM

@Krystoff: I know that You Monster! doesn't act as a qualifier. Zandramas does plenty on-screen to justify CM status even without it. And Azash just doesn't do enough to qualify in The Elenium, no matter what he is said to be responsible for.

edited 18th Dec '12 2:24:30 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Krystoff Since: Jun, 2012
#5806: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:25:13 PM

[up][up] It isn't, but I think that if possible we should judge the author's standard also and not just the books. Otherwise, it gives people excuse to label any villain that is the most evil in the story as a Complete Monster.

[up]Okay, thanks for backing me up on Azash. Provide a nice entry for Zandramas please. I am not good at this.

edited 18th Dec '12 2:26:23 PM by Krystoff

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#5807: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:34:24 PM

Grendel is afaict non-sapient and couldn't possibly count.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5808: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:41:43 PM

I already kind of did write up Zandramas, but here goes:

  • Zandramas, from David Eddings' Malloreon: Her main attributes are an overwhelming desire for power, a habit of brutally murdering anyone who helps her, using Mind Control to sadistically mess with the heroes, a helping of sexual perversion (engaging in orgies while bathed in blood from her sacrificial victims), consorting with arch-demons, and a decent helping of pride. She revels in being evil and the story specifically states that, while she is the Child of Dark and therefore the agent of prophecy, she goes above and beyond her mandate and continually fights to avoid her destiny out of sheer stubbornness; had she succeeded in disrupting the Prophecy, all of Creation would have been destroyed (or handed over to the King of Hell, whichever is worse).

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5809: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:53:36 PM

@ Krystoff. The Witches is a different book completely. I don't even know what you're saying here. They're two standalone novels with different standards. I'm not judging between an author's works unless they're the same book or series. It's like saying I have to compare anyone in Codex Alera to The Dresden Files because both are by Jim Butcher. That's absurdity. If they pass the standard in a standalone novel, by the standards of that? That's it. It also limits the author as many authors have experimented across genre and style.

@ Hodor: Grendel is fully sapient and sentient. Both he and his mother are. The dragon is the only monster in Beowulf you could make this argument for.

edited 18th Dec '12 2:53:52 PM by Lightysnake

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#5810: Dec 18th 2012 at 2:59:45 PM

Anyone else want to vote for or against Quercus Alba? Here's my example I wrote:

Ace Attorney Investigations has Quercus Alba, the mastermind behind an international smuggling ring, which is the plot for most of the game. The ring deals in counterfeit money, exchanging priceless objects for other counterfeits, and causing general deeds. While this would qualify him as a Jerkass, there's more to the story.

Several years before the game began, outside of the embassy where fifth case takes place, his associate Manny Coachen was involved in a murder of a witness who was to testify about the smuggling ring, appropriately named Cece Yew. After she was disposed of, Alba was able to continue smuggling various priceless objects between countries.

He ordered his dragon Calisto Yew to kill Byrne Faraday, the father of Edgeworth's perky teenage sidekick because he was part of a trio of thieves known as the Yatagarasu, which Yew was also a part of. Yew claimed to be Cece's sister (which of course was a lie) and used that to sneak under the radar and kill her own client, Mack Rell. She explicitly set up the crime scene so it looked like the two men had killed each other, rather than the intervention of a third person. She ended up escaping law enforcement and disguised herself as Agent Lang's secretary Shi-na. What Alba didn't realize was that Coachen had decided to take Alba's authentic Cohdophian statue for his replica. The real statue also happened to contain golden plates which would have revealed the whole smuggling operation to any authorities who happened to find it. After Alba found this out, he was furious and when he had the opportunity, met up with Coachen and killed him with a knife which he disguised in a flower. He also ordered the building be set on fire and adjusted the statues to make a shadow of the Yatagarasu appear when he talked to the frightened people.

With Coachen dead, Alba could then swap the statues again and prevent his secret from getting out. Unfortunately, Coachen had planned ahead and told an unlucky thief known as De Masque II to go after the statue. Alba was holding the statue at this time and smashed him with it. He then cleaned it thoroughly. While this would seem like it would be easy for the police to find out if they used a detecting spray, the statue could only be touched by the ambassador. Which means the police could not inspect it. To decrease the likelihood of him being caught, he also pretended to be a kindly old man using a back injury he fabricated to make it seem like he was just a concerned old man worried about his country. He would have gotten away with it all if Edgeworth didn't confront him.

edited 18th Dec '12 3:00:43 PM by Klavice

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5811: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:24:04 PM

I would just try to condense the Alba entry a little bit, but it looks pretty damn good. I also vote to keep Zandramas based on the new write-up.

President Coin from The Hunger Games is a) female, just to get that out of the way, and b) I don't think she counts. For starters, her beginnings are in District 13, which is fighting to overthrow the corrupt Capitol government, an unabashedly good and noble goal. All of her 'heinous' actions can be justified under that banner - even the firebombings. She fully intends to overthrow the Capitol. I suppose her worst moment is suggesting to make a "Capitol Games", where citizens of the Capitol are forced to compete in a reverse Hunger Games, but others at that meeting agree with her. One of them, Katniss, ends up only agreeing so that she can kill both Coin and Snow in the same go-round at Snow's public execution, and spare the Hunger Games world yet another dictator, but if I'm remembering correctly, unabashedly obvious good guy Gale also thinks the Capitol Games are a good idea, and he's not the only one. Very few people outside of the Capitol, and, later, Katniss and Peeta treat her with disgust, and she's the one who arranges to have Peeta saved from his brainwashing, an unambiguously good deed.

edited 18th Dec '12 3:25:29 PM by LargoQuagmire

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#5812: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:31:59 PM

@Lightysnake - what are you basing that on? I know they are descended from humans (Cain specifically) but I can't recall anything indicating human level intelligence. They are basically members of an animalistic human sub species that is cannibalistic. There's also Always Chaotic Evil in play since the family/their blood is curses.

Tl dr version- at best Grendel and mom are orcs but I don't recall them having even that level of intelligence.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5813: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:05:45 PM

This passage:

how ceaselessly Grendel harassed Hrothgar, what hate he bore him, what murder and massacre, many a year, feud unfading,—refused consent

Grendel is said to hate Hrothgar, and makes him a specific target. Don't forget Grendel is described as part human as well. Grendel's mom is also sentient enough to know who killed her kid and plans revenge

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#5814: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:12:07 PM

Just to throw this out in the open, I think the Trunchbull counts.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#5815: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:12:11 PM

[up][up]I think the text is ambiguous on how human either are, but I'm still not convinced we are talking about someone more than a smart animal- like the shark from deep blue sea. At the upper limit, at most Grendel is comparable to someone raised from birth by a Cannibal Clan. And regardless, there is a lack of moral agency since he and his mother are evil and malformed because of their ancestry.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:15:06 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5816: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:18:33 PM

I suppose that's fair enough as an interpretation. Dont have an issue striking Grendel.

Largo, would you say Coin is a Well-Intentioned Extremist then? My interpretation was she had fallen prey to He Who Fights Monsters and become worse than what she was trying to fight against

edited 18th Dec '12 4:22:39 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5817: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:43:08 PM

I did the original write-up on Zandramas a long time ago. What's wrong with it? I'm pretty sure I listed all of her crimes. Is it just the sarcastic tone?

"Zandramas from David Eddings' Malloreon. Between betraying everyone who helps her, kidnapping Garion's son, attempting to start a civil war in the West, having successfully started one in the east, consorting with demons, brain-washing Ce'Nedra, regularly trying to break the rules of Prophecy, cannibalism, cruelty to animals, and standing around naked in front of a toddler, she really pushes the envelope. That's all on top of already being a priestess of a Religion of Evil who liked to cut out people's hearts and bathe in their blood while nude. Even Torak and The Dark Prophecy think she was a psycho."

Regarding the count, I believe that njrxll withdrew his objection to Sauron here at 5774.

@5784

The quote says the only reason he's less evil is because he was working for Melkor for a long time. It then goes onto say that once Melkor's gone Sauron ends up just as bad. Not really the story saying he isn't as bad. I do get Tolkein's philosophy by the way. Still hate the man's writing style.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:46:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5818: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:55:44 PM

Yes, I interpret her as being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, mostly because all of her actions, sans Capitol Games, were highly justifiable considering the war she was in. There is a mild touch of He Who Fights Monsters about her towards the end. I also don't think she was worse than what she was fighting against, just more of the same. Which is why Katniss shoots her - to end the cycle of oppression.

I think the more important part is that she is most certainly not treated as a CM by anyone besides Katniss (and that's after the highly controversial death of her younger sister, which would be enough to make anyone question Coin's motives)/the series' long-established heinous group enemy. She doesn't meet all the criteria on that alone.

EDIT: Ambar, I was totally unaware that there was another write-up. I thought Zandramas (?) was one of the one-liners we were fixing.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:57:08 PM by LargoQuagmire

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5819: Dec 18th 2012 at 5:01:47 PM

The only objection I have, is there anyone but Katniss who knows the scope of what she did? Katniss only figures out Coin was responsible for the attacks on their own side after what Snow tells her, so it's unlikely anyone else but Coin knew

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5820: Dec 18th 2012 at 5:23:37 PM

I meant to comment on this in my last post but didn't. Yes, we can cut the other examples for The Silmarillion. All but Glaurung fail the heinous standard. Glaurung passes all the criteria with flying colours, but fails the moral agency test.

Given how important the moral agency question is in the Sauron discussion, I think it's actually worth comparing he and Glaurung in this regard. Glaurung is Melkor's invention. He was created in the depths of Angband to be the first fire-drake, and a weapon in Melkor's arsenal. That's his entire purpose in life. It's hard to say he really has any moral agency, because he's being exactly what he was intended to be. His enforcement of the curse of Hurin is horrific, but it's done on Melkor's orders, and quite possibly, according to Melkor's plan. Glaurung really doesn't have a choice, and never did. If you're standing far enough back from what he's done, you could almost feel sorry for the big lizard.

That's not the case for Sauron. That list of atrocities I listed at 5770? It's done in Melkor's name, but not on Melkor's orders. Sauron is given an independent command by Melkor from day one; in fact they're typically continents apart. Sauron's treatment of prisoners (I mean seriously, leaving a group together in a cell with a werewolf so they can watch as one by one their friends are dragged to their deaths? Shudder), plot to kidnap Luthien as a gift for Melkor, treatment of that man and his dead wife, etc, are all his own ideas. He's fullfilling Melkor's agenda, but but doing it of his own initiative. And as has been pointed out, he, unlike Glaurung, wasn't made to be what he is. He joined up with Melkor of his own volition (he wasn't kidnapped and corrupted; he signed on because he admired Melkor's raw power), and follows him down.

I think too that we have to consider the fact that Sauron just doesn't have Melkor's raw strength. For those unfamiliar with the series, Melkor is a Valar. Think somewhere between archangel and Physical God and you're not too far off the mark. Sauron's a Maiar. Think lesser angel/demigod, and again, you're close enough for farm use. Given that he's much more limited in what he can do, Sauron's achievements in evil are actually pretty impressive. In addition to the crimes listed above he, after Melkor's fall, manages to become the new Prime Evil in the world and source of all things nasty, keeping his boss' legacy going, but in his own name. His corruption of Numenor, in fact, became so downright revolting, that Eru, the god figure of the setting, stepped in and smote he and Numenor personally. That's pretty heinous right there.

I like Septimus Heap's new Melkor write-up and support it's inclusion. Will keep the forum posted on Sauron as I reread The Silmarillion, especially once I get to the point where he becomes the big bad.

Looking at the literature examples Krystoff cited.

Croup and Vandemar: they do seem to give a damn about each other, if nobody else. Cut.

City and Inchori are autocuts unless someone fixes them. I could get behind the rewrite for the two Inchori.

The Trunchbull. I would like to say, she is an absolute bitch. At the same time, a CM should be making me say worse things then that. I want her imprisoned, not boiled in oil. I'd probably cut, but I'm paying attention to the arguments for.

Siegfried de Lowe. Sounds like a cut from your description.

Don't know about Kronos. Will ask my brother, who has read all the books.

Zandramas. Keep. If we need a rewrite, we'll do a rewrite.

Azash. He isn't just Orcus on His Throne actually. Everything the Seeker does in Book 2 is mentally motivated by Azash, and that includes feeding on the bodily fluids of infants. Still I can see the pathetic argument, especially at the end. Could go either way.

Grendel. Monster with limited characterisation. No more a CM then say, your average fire-breathing dragon. Cut.

Coin. Needs a rewrite.

Galbatorix is bad, but just doesn't do enough I figure. Cut unless someone makes a really good argument for keeping.

edited 18th Dec '12 5:26:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#5821: Dec 18th 2012 at 5:39:56 PM

IIRC either Croup or Vandemar (forget which one) dives in after the other when one of them is Dragged Off to Hell. So yes, they definitely care for each other.

I'm not sure about Trunchbull. In terms of "by the standards of the series" measure, Roald Dahl has a fair amount of sadistic child hater characters, and I have a huge aversion of including characters from child-centered works. That being said, from my recollection, she is pretty bad compared to Dahl's other child hating sadists (yes, the witches are worse, but they aren't human either). Trunchbull is also somewhat played for laughs in terms of how over-the-top her punishments are, although it gives me pause in that she is indicated to do such over-the-top things, knowing that parents will never believe their children if they report her.

Edit- RE the Sauron and Morgoth issue, does it count for something (absent any other positive traits) when a villain is genuinely loyal to another villain. I guess not, because Tarkin seems to be genuinely loyal to Vader/ the Emperor, but I honestly wonder...

edited 18th Dec '12 5:41:06 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5822: Dec 18th 2012 at 5:41:51 PM

[up]I believe the line is "they were, after all, partners."

Your issues with the Trunchbull seem to mirror my own.

If we're talking Undying Loyalty, I'd qualify it. Anything else not really. In the specific case of Sauron, he's only loyal to Melkor because Melkor is stronger then he is. When Melkor's beaten the second time, Sauron defects and sets himself up as the new God-King. Tolkein noted at one point that the only reason Sauron gets the Numenorians to worship Melkor is because bringing them around to the worship of Sauron would have been a little obvious.

edited 18th Dec '12 5:44:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5823: Dec 18th 2012 at 5:42:59 PM

Vandemar is the one who lets go, though he's the bigger, more stupid one. Croup never seems to reciprocate he'd do the same. Like I said, Croup and Vandemar seem to be more the same entity with Vandemar as the muscle and Croup as the mind

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5824: Dec 18th 2012 at 6:01:39 PM

@ Lightysnake - I don't think it matters if anyone did. Attacking her own side was pretty bad, yes, but necessary to rally people, including Katniss, to war. Plus, it's not like President Snow can be trusted, either, and Katniss is so mentally shattered at that point that she can only be guided by what she believes is right.

Also, Coin's suggestion for a Capitol Games would reveal herself to be more treacherous than she appeared during the actual war, and, again, this was supported by others in that particular war room meeting. The Hunger Games is definitely a Crapsack World, but the thing is, for every decision she made, I can come up with justification for it that would work beyond a For the Evulz reason. President Snow is the same way - whereas Coin's ideals focus on overthrowing the corrupt government, Snow's are keeping his own position in place. They're both massively vile. I'm not saying they aren't. BUT Coin and Snow are mere pawns in the game of the true CM, which is the structure of this social class system.

edited 18th Dec '12 6:02:00 PM by LargoQuagmire

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5825: Dec 18th 2012 at 6:06:38 PM

[up]Question: are Snow and Coin victims of this class system? Or are they exploiting it to their own ends?


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