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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#57751: May 2nd 2016 at 8:59:39 AM

I want to restart the discussion on the blatantly evil Bansai Ichiyanagi/Blaise Debeste in Gyakuten Kenji 2. Because I think that he really is "completely lacking in redeeming features", the central point in the idea of CM. However, it's been quite a while since I last played the game and I've seen the past arguments against him, and I am really hesitant on doing a full effortpost (the who is he / what has he done post).

So does anyone have any ideas about him?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57752: May 2nd 2016 at 9:01:57 AM

[up] Well, there's also the heinous standard. IIRC (and I could be wrong), I think there was Offscreen Villainy issues.

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#57753: May 2nd 2016 at 9:06:26 AM

So on the heinousness standard situation, I think there is a way to go around this.

The argument that is commonly held is that the true big bad did worse things than him. However, the situation is that despite the true big bad being more heinous than Bansai is, the true big bad is redeemable (and very much is redeemed in the audience by the end), whereas Bansai's heinousness level is played without any redeeming at all times and is still heinous enough to stand a head above other Ace Attorney villains.

Basically, IMHO, both are heinous enough to stand above other common Ace Attorney villains ("truly heinous by the standards of the story"), yet one is redeemed while the other is never redeemed ("makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way").

In terms of Offscreen Villainy, I believe that the things that are already shown are enough to completely make him unredeemably heinous.

edited 2nd May '16 9:08:41 AM by Wuz

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57754: May 2nd 2016 at 9:09:04 AM

[up] Ah, that's the thing though: If Villain A is more heinous than Villain B (assuming same resources, etc), but Villain A is redeemed or otherwise disqualified, than neither would count.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#57755: May 2nd 2016 at 9:14:00 AM

It is only necessary that Villain B stand out enough to be distinctive. We've had this discussion before about relative power levels and whether each character is as heinous as they could possibly be given their resources.

If the Big Bad eats universes, but is redeemed; yet The Dragon tortures and rapes and is not redeemed, the latter could still qualify for CM given that it meets other criteria. However, if The Dragon is just a glorified mook who gets delegated to eat individual planets, it doesn't stand out in kind and thus would not qualify.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#57756: May 2nd 2016 at 9:19:16 AM

[up]Hm, that makes sense.

So in my opinion, I think that the two are indeed on different degrees. The true big bad's crimes are mainly centered around the manipulation of others, while Bansai/Blaise is more about the corruption of justice and abuse of power. And both do indeed stand out.

edited 2nd May '16 9:21:11 AM by Wuz

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#57757: May 2nd 2016 at 9:20:51 AM

@ACW

Not narm, actually. It's a description of what's going on. The villain's body has all but rotted away, but his spirit has possessed the very stones of the building he occupies, and as such, he can no longer die. He's actively mourning the fact that nobody killed him before it came to this.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57758: May 2nd 2016 at 9:23:22 AM

[up] Wow, not narm then, but geeze that seems REALLY depressing.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#57759: May 2nd 2016 at 9:26:05 AM

Here's my write-up for Wick:

  • Clive Barker's Next Testament: Wick, "The Father of Colors" is a psychotic, hedonistic entity who inspired both God and the Devil from the Bible. Having caused all manner of chaos in the past, including flooding the Earth just to see how it would look, he was locked away for 2000 years by his brothers, Unan and Filt, before being awakened by a rich old man named Julian Edmond. After taking Julian’s lover as a sacrifice and brutally killing everyone at Julian’s encampment, along with almost everyone at a dinner party back at Julian’s mansion, Wick announces his second coming to the world by causing every single aircraft on Earth to plummet to the ground at once. When he travels with Julian to Hollywood, he’s disappointed by the lack of barbarism on display. Deciding that he preferred the Earth with a smaller population, he massacres the city, claiming that he had already killed 4 million people, and that there are 6.5 billion to go. He then travels to San Francisco, and does some 'spring cleaning' by destroying the entire Midwestern United States. After telling the people that he has never ended suffering in the world because he 'couldn’t care less', he tries to get the population there to build him a pyramid. When they are unable to do so, he blots out the sun and has a swarm of locusts descend upon the city as well as much of the rest of the world. Eventually, having killed a young woman who he had taken as his lover and fatally wounding Julian for questioning him, Wick speaks to the whole world and tells them that he’s found nothing on Earth worth saving, and begins the apocalypse. Unan and Filt arrive after being called by Julian’s son Tristan, and battle with Wick to stop his madness. During their fight, Wick sets an area with a population of 3 million people to be destroyed as a distraction for his final attack. When he’s finally subdued by his brothers and seemingly exiled by them, he claims that it won’t stop him, and that he’ll return someday to do everything over again. A psychopathic being with near-limitless power, Wick proves himself to be among the most evil depictions of God in all of fiction.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#57760: May 2nd 2016 at 9:33:30 AM

[up] That needs to be cut down a fair bit. Let me try...

Clive Barker's Next Testament: Wick, "The Father of Colors," is a psychotic, hedonistic entity who inspired both God and the Devil from the Bible. Having caused all manner of chaos in the past, including flooding the Earth just to see how it would look, he was locked away for 2000 years by his brothers, Unan and Filt, before being awakened by a rich old man named Julian Edmond. After taking Julian’s lover as a sacrifice and brutally killing everyone at Julian’s encampment, along with almost everyone at a dinner party back at Julian’s mansion, Wick announces his second coming to the world by causing every single aircraft on Earth to plummet to the ground at once. After traveling to Julian to Hollywood, Wick decides that he preferred the Earth with a smaller population and starts randomly wreaking havoc through the world, killing millions and wiping out the entirety of the Midwestern United States. Wick blots out the sun and has a swarm of locusts assault the world after his demands for a pyramid aren't met, and soon after murders Julian for questioning him. Wick finally announces his intent to obliterate everything after failing to see anything worth saving, and even upon his defeat Wick gloats that he'll one day be back. A narcissistic being with near-limitless power, Wick proves himself to be a far cry from the benevolent depictions of God.

@Jalek: Looking at the original writeup... not entirely convinced he needs a rewrite.

edited 2nd May '16 9:49:39 AM by Scraggle

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#57761: May 2nd 2016 at 9:53:23 AM

In regards to the argument Wuz brought up, I again cite Cyrus and Charon from Pokemon Diamond And Pearl Adventure. Cyrus was the Big Bad in the first five volumes and attempted to use the powers of time to wipe out the entire universe and commit mass omnicide in order to re-create the universe (and everything in it) into one he considered to be a better reality, with him as it's god. He gets redeemed. Charon, the Big Bad in the latter three volumes, is thoroughly irredeemable yet can't even compete with that scale since he just wants to amass enough power and wealth to rule the world, so how does he stand out? By ordering suicide bombings on public arenas (that threaten to wipe out the whole populated town as well), physically abusing other human characters on-panel, performing Mind Rape experiments on Pokemon that turn them into living weapons, attempting to have one such Pokemon kill a boy who used to be it's trainer, and having a direct hand in all of his team's worst individual crimes, including those committed by Cyrus. Cyrus ends up willing to learn from his mistakes and embrace friendship with others, whereas Charon is the exact opposite. Cyrus' heinous crimes and plans were also motivated by a warped sort of idealism, whereas Charon's were motivated by cynicism, greed, and egomania. This is a solid example of how a Villain B with a less heinous end goal and less to work with than Villain A still manages to qualify as a CM while Villain A does not.

edited 2nd May '16 9:56:47 AM by ANewMan

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#57762: May 2nd 2016 at 10:02:51 AM

Another example of this [up] would be Rau Le Creuset and Murata Azrael in Gundam SEED. Le Creuset is out to cause the apocalypse and wipe out the entire human race. He's responsible in one way or another for almost every bad thing going down in-series, yet remains just sympathetic enough to dodge qualifying. Azrael is a genocidal madman who aims to wipe out an entire group of people. Obviously that's a lesser bodycount than what Le Creuset is going for, but the way he goes about it—using drug-addicted child soldiers to do the dying for him, blasting his own allies with a weapon of mass destruction, and otherwise being the biggest bastard that he can to the greatest number of people that he can, cements his qualification.

@ACW

It is very depressing.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#57763: May 2nd 2016 at 10:06:40 AM

[up] On top of that, while Azrael can't really compete with Le Creuset in terms of the scale of his plans and actions, he directly competes with Patrick Zala and yet again manages to stand out as truly vile and heinous in ways Zala does not. Zala at least has some mitigating qualities, small though they may be. Azrael? Nothing - he's just a sociopathic, genocidal dick.

edited 2nd May '16 10:07:10 AM by ANewMan

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57764: May 2nd 2016 at 10:07:25 AM

But, but, but, Azrael is sympathetic...he was BULLIED.
Incidentally, it's only Monday and there are already 15 new entries this week waii. Plus I HOPE to be looking at the final 3 NCIS candidates and the 2 Criminal Minds ones.

edited 2nd May '16 10:11:09 AM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57765: May 2nd 2016 at 10:35:04 AM

Why is the Monster page for the Jag franchise listed as Monster/NCIS? Jag is the only reason those spin-offs exist, so it should be Monster/JAG Universe.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#57766: May 2nd 2016 at 10:51:27 AM

@A New Man

It also doesn't hurt that, childish as it may sound, Azrael started it. The only reason why Patrick Zala wants to massacre all the Naturals is because Azrael nuked 250 000 Coordinators, including Patrick's wife, Lenore. That Patrick has become the monster he has is a direct—and completely predictable—result of Azrael's unprovoked attack on ZAFT. Take Azrael out of the equation, and you likely never have a Patrick.

There's also the fact that Patrick's far more of a puppet of Le Creuset than Azrael is. Patrick has Le Creuset whispering in his ear, playing on his grief, and pushing him towards his genocidal end goal. Azrael doesn't have that mitigating factor at play. All Le Creuset does is give him the means to do what he already was going to do in the first place. I think my fiancee put it well—Le Creuset is manipulating Patrick, but simply enabling Azrael.

edited 2nd May '16 10:54:20 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

jameygamer Since: May, 2014
#57767: May 2nd 2016 at 11:32:10 AM

Anyone want to bring up the 2012 version of Shredder in TMNT as a Complete Monster?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57768: May 2nd 2016 at 11:33:07 AM

[up][up][up] You raise a good point...not quite sure how to handle it. I mean, JAG itself only has one entry, and NCIS is the better-known one...

edited 2nd May '16 11:33:17 AM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57769: May 2nd 2016 at 11:35:29 AM

Being a More Popular Spin-Off shouldn't mean anything here. Jag is the first entry in the franchise, so the page should be named after it.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57770: May 2nd 2016 at 11:45:10 AM

[up] Alright, done and all the redirects re-redirected. For the TV page, I requested it be changed to

  • JAG (includes NCIS)

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#57771: May 2nd 2016 at 11:47:44 AM

2012 Shredder, unfortunately, doesn't count as a Complete Monster due to a genuine (If VERY twisted) care for his daughter, Karai.

edited 2nd May '16 11:48:01 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#57773: May 2nd 2016 at 11:55:03 AM

012 Shredder had twisted, possessive love for both Karai and Karai's mother, and in the narrative it's framed as being rather pitiful as opposed to heinous and despicable. He's still a nasty piece of work whose chance of redemption is highly unlikely, but he's not quite the CM that Utrom Shredder was.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#57774: May 2nd 2016 at 4:31:08 PM

So, um, I won't give spoilers, but I just read the summary for the latest Game of Thrones ep...Ramsay's entry will need to be expanded when the season's over. Click here if you want the details, and make sure to avoid being specific (I even used tinyurl so as to avoid the spoiler in the link name).

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#57775: May 2nd 2016 at 5:11:04 PM

[up] Yeah, even by Ramsay's standards, that was pretty twisted. I'll take care of the expansion once the season's over, if nobody objects. As an aside, I have a hard time believing that Ramsay will make it out Season 6 alive.

@Ravok, I'm glad something good came out of your emotional devastation. I'll never judge somebody's choice of fiction. Unless it's reality TV.

@Tyk, I actually though Kyubey was cute, if creepy, at first. By the ninth episode, I wanted to strangle that little abomination, throw him in a sack, throw the sack in a river, and throw the river into space. "No concept of deception" my ass.


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