During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Well I think Bullseye became more iconic when Frank Miller used him as one of the main villains in his run.
Bullseye was always a villain with no redeeming qualities, his first appearance had him try to run an extortion scheme where he would kill rich people if they didn't give him a large sum of money, but he still would use cliched villain dialogue and would do some kinda silly super villain things, like trying to steal an antique pistol from a store, because he needed something to fit his motif. I think Miller made him the villain he all know and loathe today, but there were hints of what he would become early on.
I am going to abstain on Crazy Light, I don't like voting on fan fiction unless I think it sounds really good and really gets the spirit of the original work.
edited 22nd Apr '16 8:09:35 PM by Overlord
Fascinating that. Joker's another interesting case, as he started out a bit dark, then became goofy, then became the CM we know, I recomment this book
.
I want all of your guys' opinions on how far the Well-Intentioned Extremist trope can be pushed before it fails and the character would still count. The character in question is Sargeras, the Greater-Scope Villain of the Warcraft series. He's quite similar to Amon from Starcraft in that both are Omnicidal Maniacs who see themselves as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but while Amon's reasoning was obviously false and he wound up counting, Sargeras and his motives actually make some sense after the recent Warcraft: Chronicle background lore book was released.
In the book, is it shown that Titans like Sargeras are born as world-souls in a planet's fiery core before maturing into full Titans. The Titans waged an eternal war with Eldritch Abominations called the Void Lords. The Void Lords created the Old Gods and scattered them throughout the universe to corrupt world-souls. Sargeras, then champion of the Titans, found one such corrupted world-soul and destroyed it. The rest of the Titans were understandably angry and refused to help Sargeras hunt down corrupted world-souls. Sargeras believed the universe had to be destroyed and then recreated to ensure the corruption of the Void Lords would not succeed. He created the Burning Legion to destroy all life in the universe, regretfully slew his student Aggramar when confronted about it, and destroyed the rest of the Titans in an apocalyptic war. Overall, I'm wondering if you guys believe the Well-Intentioned Extremist trope is still justifiable in Sargeras's case.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.@Fried Warthog Never outright stated, but with the level of destruction caused (shown here
), it's an implausible deniability.
Personally, I find that while taking over the world is a fairly generic goal, how and why that goal is accomplished makes all the difference. (Compare Dr. Doom to this guy.)
edited 22nd Apr '16 10:52:17 PM by Aker-Sama
"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."I vote
on The Watcher. While what he does is very, very heinous, he at least had reason to do so (however disproportionate it is), which can't be said for most of the other qualifying characters from the SCP's universe who do what they do out of sheer sadism (looking at you 105 and 1790), so, personally, I wouldn't say he meets the heinousness standard set by this world.
Looking back, the watcher really doesn't count at all since he fails the heinousness standard. I don't think there should be further discussions. Cleared my nomination.
Apologies for writing this failure of a nomination and messing it up. I have quite a low self-esteem and I Apologises a Lot, even on the internet, for even the littlest "wrong" thing I did.
edited 22nd Apr '16 11:23:18 PM by Wuz
I'm gonna abstain on the Watcher for now, due to potential Blue-and-Orange Morality.
Alright, I have one more candidate for the night (Or day, wherever you are). I just finished the Wolverine anime, and believe we have another Marvel Animation CM on our hands.
What's the story?
Wolverine goes to Japan to rescue Mariko, the girl he loves who is being forced to marry a crime lord named Hideki Kurohagi by her father, Shingen.
Now, Shingen is intelligent, Evil Is Cool, and badass, while Kurohagi is...completely the opposite. Though he is somewhat Genre Savvy, I guess...
Who is he?
Hideki Kurohagi is one part of the Big Bad Duumvirate along with Shingen, with Shingen being the brawn....and brains....of the operation.
Kurohagi was once the son of a prominent crime lord, but his father died one day due to "mysterious" circumstances.
Now the present, Kurohagi is pledged to be married to Mariko in order to gain Shingen's resources, despite Mariko's fierce protests.
What has he done?
Already a crime boss who is shown nonchalantly threatening the life of a man's daughter if he doesn't cooperate, Kurohagi also works with the international terrorist group, A.I.M.
Kurohagi is the "owner" of an entire island (Also his home base), called Madripoor, where hundreds of people are in poverty and dying in gang wars and such because Kurohagi is keeping all the food, money, and resources to himself.
Taking every opportunity to make passes at Mariko, Kurohagi often states he can't wait for their wedding night, heavily, heavily, heavily implying he plans to fully invoke Marital Rape License, much to Mariko's disgust.
When Wolverine (Logan) shows up to save Mariko, her father challenges him to a one-on-one duel for her life, during which Kurohagi interrupts and shoots Logan in the back with a paralytic serum that results in his loss to Shingen.
Kurohagi, telling Mariko he plans to ship Logan back to America, actually has him tossed in the way of an oncoming train while he's unconscious in an attempt to kill him.
Continuously trying to have Logan and Yukio, Logan's partner, killed, Kurohagi has infamous Serial Killer supervillain Omega Red shipped to him, then allows him to assault Logan to his liking.
Later, Kurohagi, at Madripoor, learns Logan is on the island, and responds by unleashing a statue robot to kill him, which leads the machine to leveling numerous buildings in the slum section of the island.
Capturing Yukio, Kurohagi orders Logan to turn himself in or she will die, and, when Yukio almost escapes, Kurohagi uses his paralytic serum on her, strangles her to near-death, then states he plans to personally and slowly kill her when he has more time (It's as creepy as it sounds), as he has to prepare for the wedding between himself and Mariko at the moment.
When Kurohagi buys a new poisonous serum from A.I.M., he cruelly tests it on one of his own men, and gleefully laughs as it excrutiatingly kills the man.
Kurohagi learns that Logan, along with numerous freedom fighters, have infiltrated his castle, and as such, orders his men to open fire on all of them, one of which is a preteen/Barely teenage, unarmed, and defenseless girl.
Now comes the moment where Kurohagi jumps from "Man, this guy's jerkass, when is he gonna die?" into "THIS GUY'S A SICK PRICK! SOMEONE KILL THIS ASSHAT!"
See, Kurohagi releases his robot stature again onto Logan, who it proceeds to curbstomp. When the robot accidentally injures an elderly freedom fighter, the young girl from before (Named Min) jumps in front of the man, who is considerably out of range of Logan, and begs the machine to spare the old man. Kurohagi responds by ordering the robot to kill them both, to which it smacks the girl hard enough to send her flying, and kill her, while Kurohagi gleefully watches on. Yeah, prick.
Logan, along with Kikyo, Kurohagi's own bodyguard who turned on him due to what he did to the girl, destroy the robot, and Kurohagi flees the scene, trying to start the wedding ASAP.
Logan bursts into the ceremony, and Kurohagi holds his bride-to-be Mariko at gunpoint to get Logan to stand down, until Shingen begins attacking Logan, allowing Kurohagi the chance the flee with Mariko.
Kurohagi arrives in an underground bunker with Mariko, where he reveals no only that he was the one who killed his father, but that he's kept his corpse for display. Freak.
Kurohagi then takes another step into "ASSHAT" territory when he activates bombs surrounding throughout his building, which kill the dozens, if not hundreds, of guards, freedom fighters, and wedding guests inside, all in an attempt to kill Logan.
Logan survives (Obviously) and confronts Kurohagi, who once again holds Mariko at gunpoint, before seemingly killing Logan with his poison serum, and, when Mariko tries to protect Logan from any more Kurohagi's bullets, he violently smacks her out of the way (Not the first time this happens, mind you), calling her a whore.
Logan was playing dead, hwever, and injects Kurohagi with his own poison, and he dies begging like a dog for someone, even his own dead father, to help him, while he manages to get one last shot from his gun off, which mortally wounds Mariko, resulting in her death.
Cue Bittersweet Ending tune.
Throughout the series, Kurohagi is a Smug Snake, Dirty Coward, Jerkass, Psychopathic Manchild who made me want to punch my screen in rage everytime he was onscreen, which was the point, so well done, writers.
Meh. His dad was a hardened criminal, and Kurohagi claims he always looked down on him, his own son, and that he was planning to kill Kurohagi if he ever tried to take over, but this is never shown, implied, or stated in any actual scenes, so the only thing we have to go on is Kurohagi's word, which is already doubtful due to him being a liar extraordinaire, but it's double doubtful when he was using it to try to mainpulate Mariko.
And frankly, I don't think it'd disqualify him if it was shown.
"Wah! Daddy never thought I was good enough, so I killed him, took over his empire, and become an Ax-Crazy Caligula! Wah!"
Nope. Not working for me.
Redeeming features?
Well, he obviously cares for Mariko, right? The girl he tried to force to marry him. The girl he physically and verbally abused. The girl he held at gunpoint twice. The girl he basically said he was going to rape on their wedding night. Yeah......
Heinousness?
Is one of the Big Bads, so he sets the standard. He actually easily surpasses the other Big Bad, Shingen, with flying colors, despite Shingen being considerably more powerful than him.
Overall, he killed his own father, he's a crime lord, with all the murder and drug dealing that entails, tries to force a girl to marry him with heavy Marital Rape License implications, he murders his own minions for fun and uses them as cannon fodder, he strangles a female hero to near-death, only stopping because he wants to do it even slower when he has time, he uses innocents as human shields, he had a young teen girl murdered for no real reason other than his temper, and he killed dozens of people in an explosion just to try and murder the hero.
Final Verdict?
edited 22nd Apr '16 11:56:44 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Hush killer. Either Maddie's a badass, and/or the killer is a weakling (not to mention not being able to take John in a a fair fight).
Mastermind. What's his ultimate motive, anyway? P.S. Overlord: They DID make Magneto into a monster (Ultimate X Men); he had just enough to prevent him from being a CM (and that decision was pretty recent).
Easy
Kurohagi (how does Wolverine survive the train?).
Don't forget about NCIS; if anyone's got a better quote, feel free to suggest it.
- Also, I got rid of the last line for the JAG entry. Couldn't find anything in the transcript about him killing for fun.
- For the second NCIS entry, did the goons just intend to have the kid kill himself and his mother, or the entire school?
- Has anyone seen these NCIS eps? These are characters who also have high (attempted) body counts like Boone, and also don't have a Freudian Excuse (i.e. parents were killed like Benham Parsa
; snapped like Jonas Cobb
; trying to avenge his son—albeit Misplaced Retribution—like Harper Dearing
; or Ari who it seems was raised evil):
edited 1st May '16 7:47:12 AM by ACW
to Kurohagi.
@ ACW, Yeah I know about Ultimate Magneto and frankly I don't like him as a villain, I find him dull and annoying. I think with some of these villains, their personality becomes iconic. Red Skull and Joker are often written as monsters in other adaptations because their monstrous personalities are an iconic part of those characters (even if they are not always written as monsters), but with Magneto what makes him compelling is his sympathetic personality, take that away and he doesn't feel like Magneto, he feels like some guy with a magnetism gimmick.
@ACW: Logan barely survived the train because Yukio (His soon to be partner throughout the show) saved him because she needed his help.
As for Mastermind.....I have NO idea what his end goal was. Like, he, and the X-Men, state he's planning to create a "New world" where mutants reign supreme, but it's never actually revealed how he plans to do this. He plans to Mind Rape Takeo into going on a reality warping rampage, and then....rule over what's left?
Like, even at the beginning of the show, when he turns Jean Grey into the Phoenix, he seems content with just letting her cause destruction, as she has destroyed alot of her surroundings already, and Mastermind just happily watches on without giving her any actual orders.
He's not a GDV or anything, his end goal was just never defined, so THAT was weird.
edited 23rd Apr '16 8:12:53 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Also, I found these pics of Kurohagi that could work for Marvel Animation. Though, I'm a bit skeptical after my last suggestion thread didn't go so well, so I'd like to hear some opinions here, first.
- Kurohagi strangling/holding a paralyzed Yukio at gunpoint
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- Kurohagi holding Mariko at gunpoint
◊
- Kurohagi having killed his father
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edited 23rd Apr '16 9:47:25 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

De Carta: Please replace the current entry on the Transformers sandbox with that.
Bullseye not a big deal when he first appeared??