During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah, Ihave to agree. Kokuto kind of fails a few points. He clearly loved his sister in the film, and he fails the moral agency test due to being legitimately completely nuts from Hell. Not in the Deathwing corruption nuts, but...
and don't we already have Comedic Sociopathy as is?
I dunno, it's possible for the villain of a comic work to still be a serious, scary, and very evil threat. The Discworld Complete Monster entries are good examples, as is Sarris from (of all things) Galaxy Quest.
What's precedent ever done for us?Also, for those folks weighing in on Tolkien's characters - old discussion was here
forward.
@ Iaculus
absolutely true. a villain should qualify in a comedic work if they're played as a monster in that, but not if you're meant to laugh at them.
Sarris in Galaxy Quest? The guy is a scary, genocidal bastard whose evil acts are never played for comedy. Ditto Xykon in Order Of The Stick, even if he has funny moments, he has multiple atrocities that are played for horror.
Cartman though? Meant to be pitch black comedy. Plus, he's way too pathetic in my opinion.
Now, @ Septimus
Weighing in on that discussion, the reason I feel fighteer is wrong is severalfold:
Foremost, Melkor and Sauron are treated not as unknowable, godlike beings, but we get into their motivations, their personalities and their downfalls in The Silmarillion. Gods in LOTR are pretty relatable.
His second point is they never engage in wanton cruelty. I find this fundamentally untrue for several reasons.
With Morgoth, his attempted rape of Luthien serves no purpose but what the text describs as his lust. What he does to Hurin, Nocturna says, was done in revenge for opposing him. But why go to such extremes through innocent kids? If Hurin opposed him, torturing Hurin to death or killing Hurin would be 'justified' actions. Sitting him in a chair, torturing him while saying "Hey, now you're going to watch your family suffer and die beyond what anyone has ever known, and I'm going to be enjoying this the whole time, let's begin shall we?" Is beyond the pale.
Sauron also engages in very casual, sadistic cruelty as well. As I pointed out previously, what greater purpose is served by chucking prisoners to Shelob? The text even says this is for his entertainment. What he did to Beren and his men isn't just a purpose. Like with Morgoth above, it'd be justified to kill them, bu he does so in such a ridiculously cruel and drawn out manner.
Here's the kicker, though. His manipulation of Gorlim. To quote the text itself after Gorlim begs to be reunited with his wife: Then Sauron laughed, and he mocked Gorlim, and revealed to him that he had seen only a phantom devised by wizardry to entrap him; for Eilinel was dead. 'Nonetheless I will grant thy prayer,' said Sauron; 'and thou shalt go to Eilinel and be set free of my service.; then he put him cruelly to death.
There's no greater purpose to this. this is just Sauron being evil for its own sake. Manipulating and killing Gorlim is one thing. Mocking him like this and killing him in a slow, painful matter?
This is wanton and unnecessary, as Fighteer says, solely for the benefit of satisfying some need for suffering.
@Lightysnake: First off, you are confusing LOTR and Silmarillion.
Two, there are no Complete Monsters in Lord Of The Rings: Sauron is only Orcus on His Throne, everyone else very low-grade villainy.
About Silmarillion, all what you are bringing up there is very low in body count, considering the The Silmarillion isn't exactly a nice, peaceful world. So it doesn't get over the "heinous" standard. I also have to question Melkor/Morgoth in terms of moral agency - how much choice did he have in this matter?
Bringing up YMMV.Pokemon Black 2 And White 2. Don't worry, 32 Footsteps and Co., it's not Ghetsis again.
- Complete Monster: Queen Bellelba from the Mystery Doors of the Magical Land series in Pokestar Studios. She imprisons those that enter the doors and have their life energy sucked out and poured into her, for no reason other than wanting the life energy of humans. She even says that if the balances of the two world reverse, all humans could end up under her control. She acts pretty heartless and shows no regret for her actions.
Does not sound very heinous for me. Opinions?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanI would need more information to say anything on the Pokemon Black-White 2 villain. The life-energy-sucking sounds less 'CM-worthy' to me and more 'Queen Beryl rip-off'. I would need to know how, exactly, she acts 'heartless'.
@ Septimus
Sorry, I was using LOTR as a catch all for the Tolkienverse in general. Melkor doesn't even appear in LOTR. And yes, in the world of the Sil, those are relatively small potatoes, but? Melkor and Sauron are responsible for all the larger scale evil as well, so it's more of an addition to the evil they've already done. And it's also a rebuttal to fighteer's point of how the two never do any cruelty without purpose, or act in pursuit of wanton sadism. I believe those incidents and crimes prove they do and add to their monstrosity, rather than make the case in of themselves.
so Morgoth is an attempted rapist, sadistic torturer in addition to being a genocidal tyrant and corrupter. Sauron is a nasty sadist in addition to what he does with Numenor.
As for moral agency...Eru, the One, never forces Melkor to be evil. He turns against the other Valar on his own and does everything on his own accord.
edited 16th Dec '12 2:58:37 PM by Lightysnake
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To reiterate what's been said by Lightysnake, Melkor/Morgoth chose to become the God of Evil that he is and rejected any chance at redemption. Similarly, Sauron chose to become his right-hand man, and to try and become the new Dark Lord after Melkor/Morgoth was defeated and imprisoned. And while yeah, The Silmarillion doesn't take place in a very nice world, Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron are the reason that world isn't very nice. The whole reason the setting is as war-torn as it is, is because Melkor/Morgoth decided he wanted to control/destroy (I could never get straight which one it was) all creation. And after he fell, and was locked up, Sauron continued that trend, keeping the world a lousy place.
The "the setting is too dark for anyone to stand out" argument doesn't work as well when someone is making the setting that dark.
Not just Numenor. Sauron's also complicit is all of Melkor's crimes. He runs the war against the Elves while Melkor's out corrupting humanity, frequently seems to be the brains of the outfit even when they are together, and has a hand in almost everything else that Melkor gets up to. By the time Melkor is imprisoned, Sauron's pretty far across the line, and then he just keeps going, trying to conquer the world in his own name (via Mind Rape by Ring), turning Numenor from a utopia and into an imperious, child-sacrificing dystopia, and starting how many world wars? Three?
edited 16th Dec '12 3:07:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
All these arguments, to be honest, look more like Evil Overlord arguments and not so much Complete Monster ones. They are simply too standard to qualify an Evil Overlord/God of Evil for this trope. Never mind that Morgoth/Sauron aren't particularly sadistic and monster-ish in their advancements.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:10:31 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The two of them are the creators of the Evil Overlord archetype. That said, what's so standard about their villainy? I keep hearing from the people who want to cut that it's a really dark world, and nothing they do is heinous by the standards of the setting. Okay then. Who's worse? Who's actions make their's seem minor by comparison? Because I'm wracking my brain for an answer and not coming up with anything.
Again the archetypal evil overlord argument (which I was using earlier) fails here, because we're dealing with the guys who made the trope (or at least codified it).
And for that matter what's not sadistic about feeding people to Shelob? Or leaving them in a prison cell with a werewolf? Or a rape attempt? Or the whole, "making you watch as your son and daughter spend their lives in torment"? Sadism is deriving enjoyment from the suffering of others. That's exactly what both of them are doing.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:23:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I simply don't see how that passage I posted isn't sadistic. The text makes it clear they're sadistic and very cruelly enjoy what they do. How precisely is this stuff 'standard evil overlord' stuff? What standard evil overlord stuff includes a list of "force a man to watch the destruction of his family for decades while savoring his anguish" or "take the most beautiful, fair race of beings, and torture the living hell out of them until you've created a race of twisted, malformed, evil monsters?"
I mean, what Melkor did to the elves alone should list him for consideration on this. And again, it's not really fair to list it as an archetype thing given Tolkien's role in creating those.
And this "It's a dark world" argument. It is. Because of them. These other actions don't stick out in the setting because Sauron and Melkor continuously do all the widespread evil things around.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:23:52 PM by Lightysnake
Yeah, I'm not seeing how that doesn't count as sadistic. If there was someone who was more sadistic I'd get that. But as far as my memory of The Silmarillion goes, there isn't.
Keep in mind, I'm not a fan of Tolkein. I found Melkor/Morgoth to be a pretty lame character overall, and thought that Sauron was just wasted. I have nothing vested in getting/keeping them listed. But I'm just not seeing how they fail the litmus test. I can't think of anybody worse, they're the entire reason the setting is as dark as it is, they're irredeemable, and they've got a lengthy list of crimes behind them.
OK, take two:
- Fighteer's argument is basically "They are Evil Overlord archetypes, not Complete Monster ones"
- Their behaviour stands out in the works they are in. But they need to confirm to an absolute standard as well. And there I don't see how Morgoth and Sauron stand out. It's one thing to claim that Shan-Yu from Mulan is a monster because Disney is a softer world than Real Life and thus his actions (which would be normal in RL) stand out, but quite a different thing to claim that Morgoth and Sauron stand out among all similar villains in similar settings and similar corcumstances.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:27:56 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanOkay, how is genocide,corruption, torture and the extinction of civilizations not up to the usual fantasy standard? How is taking a race of beautiful beings and torturing them until they're misshapen monsters, and repeating this process ad nauseum until you've created all the monsters of the world not up to the standard?
what is the point of Complete Monster if what they do isn't the standard? Lord Of The Rings and The Silmarillion? These two set the standard for it, and honestly, for a lot of fantasy in general. Even compared there, these two wipe out entire peoples and nations.
Furthermore, I don't see Evil Overlord and Complete Monster as mutually exclusive. A Complte Monster can be an Evil Overlord or a Blood Knight or a Mad Scientist or even a Drill Sergeant Nasty depending on how they're written.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:30:48 PM by Lightysnake
My edited point standards. An Evil Overlord can be a complete monster.
Also, we're concerned with how Melkor and Sauron stack up with other people in work they themselves are in, and they outstrip every other villain there.
And It's the rare fantasy villain who achieves the obliteration of entire civilizations and cultures, so they sure as heck go well beyond that standard as well.
I think there's a bit of a different standard being used for these two solely because this is Tolkien we're talking about. If you ascribed their deeds to another villain in another work, there wouldn't be nearly as much discussion.
edited 16th Dec '12 3:36:10 PM by Lightysnake
Ok, with Sauron I'll request a cite for "he wanted to obliterate cultures and co." for Sil and then I'll vote for him.
With Morgoth, you've got me wavering: Does he really want to do all these things?
edited 16th Dec '12 3:38:40 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanYes. Morgoth gets every chance in the world to repent and he refuses it constantly.
Also, look what Sauron did to Numenor. He caused its destruction. Sauron tries to enact genocide on Rohan, Gondor, you name it. He also tried to wipe out Lorien, the dwarves of Erebor, you name it. In The Silmarillion, Melkor appoints him in charge of destroying the elves. Sauron is more than happy to do so
I was asking about whether they wanted to do all these things.
And now I'll have to stop at least until tomorrow, so you can take time for the other examples that are waiting for review (Pokemon, the redirects to Complete Monster etc.).
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThe answer to that question is emphatically yes. Both do everything of their own accord and on their own initiative.
Now, as far as this Pokemon Example goes...likewise, I'd need more info
edited 16th Dec '12 3:44:54 PM by Lightysnake
There's a couple examples I'd like to dispute.
From Bleach, Aizen. For those of you who haven't been following the recent chapters the new Big Bad, Yhwach, tried to recruit him, but he was too evil for even Aizen. A few chapters later it's revealed he actually helped the protagonists against Yhwach, though they didn't know it at the time, by messing with his perception of time and causing him to leave Soul Society before he could kill absolutely everyone.
From Fire Emblem 4, Queen Hilda. While she's certainly cruel to more distant relatives, she (at least in the translation I found) seems to care enough about her immediate family to want to seek vengeance for them, and upon her defeat asks her daughter to seek vengeance for her.
@5657 - You left out "Sabrina's character" from that entry, which combined with the rest of the first sentence makes me think "what, is this a character from a Show Within a Show or something?" If so, Kill It with Fire. If not, still Kill It with Fire; it sounds like, as @5658 put it, a generic magical girl show villain.
EDIT: On the main page:
Yup. Nuke that crap from orbit.
edited 16th Dec '12 5:25:05 PM by AquaRegia

I read the Bleach Complete Monster Page. Uh...I've seen the Hell Chapter movie. I'm not seeing how Kokuto qualifies. He has an Freudian Excuse which explains his actions, nevermind the constant death and rebirth in hell frankly messed with his mind.