During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
On other news, how do fanfic rules work again? What would happen if the story's not Torture Porn, but the tone's different? Like, a My Little Pony fic dealing with genocide?
Why so serious?
It varies. Usually, that only works if the series in question is already dark or already has CMs to begin with. In that case, no. A villain from an MLP fanfic dealing with genocide probably wouldn't count. Now, if it's a Redwall fanfic or Dungeons & Dragons / Dragonlance, then yes, since many of the villains from those series are pretty nasty to begin with.
edited 1st Apr '16 12:50:44 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.The main reason I asked was because I wrote a Inside Out fic that... had an outlandish and bizarre plot, but wasn't a Torture Porn story.
Why so serious?
Though seriously, as I've noted in the past, it is actually true that that kind of reinterpretation is pervasive enough that I'm willing to approach some of its fanfics on their own terms (at least for the purposes of this thread).
Also, I'm not sold on the Crooked Man. If he was voted down twice before, it seems like we should check why and discuss it rather than just all assume the previous votes were invalid.
edited 1st Apr '16 1:18:11 PM by nrjxll
According to Ravok, I think the main issue was the heinous standard for the Fables universe.
![]()
Really? ....I'm a little intrigued now. How bizarre we talking?
edited 1st Apr '16 1:20:48 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Hey guys! You know something? I've been on a Pokemon kick, a BIG one, to be honest! And it's hard not to, it's an addicting, fun little series, and I love collecting and training all the little beasties every time a new set of games comes out. And since we have two new games coming near the end of the year, Sun and Moon, I think I want to turn you guys' attention to a little known, often overlooked character who has never EVER been bought up here! Not ever!
So who is this villain, anyway?
Are there any fans of the Pokemon Black and White games here? If so, you guys should already know who I'm proposing. But for those of you not in the know, these games (Which I feel are underrated as far as Pokemon games go, but that's neither here nor there) and their sequels have a main villain who is awful. And when I say awful, I mean downright nasty, right up there with the likes of Palpatine and Red Skull. His name... is Ghetsis Harmonia, a huge jerk, self-centered douchecanoe, and all around mean dad who is the secret leader of the evil Pokemon stealing organization known as Team Plasma.
What has he done?
To quote a line I've seen used for the nastiest of villains, STRAP. YOURSELVES. IN.
Now at first, Ghetsis seems like a rather nice, surprisingly sweet guy: he serves as the second-in-command to his son N, a rather sympathetic guy, albeit not to bright who wants to free Pokemon from their perceived slavery at the hands of humans and will resort to having his goons commit thievery and other such things to "save" these Pokemon.
Ghetsis on the other hand shows up at various points in the game, usually holding public rallies where he encourages people to release their Pokemon and do the supposed right thing. The guy has quite a way with words, which is why a lot of people are initially swayed by his proposal. Other points where he shows up he talks with the player and is downright civil: when one of the player's friends has a Pokemon stolen from her, he encourages the goons who swiped said Pokemon to return her. Another time, he peacefully asks the Gym Leader of Driftveil Clay to release some misbehaving Team Plasma goons. Once again, nice guy! Or so you believe.
Now at the game's climax over at the mandatory Pokemon endgame where you challenge the region's elite four and champion at the Pokemon League, N interrupts your challenge and takes over the League by erecting an enormous castle around the league. Scary stuff, that. Now at this point, N wants to have a battle where truth is pitted against ideals, where you use your game's Legendary Pokemon mascot against his, and you'd be forgiven for thinking that this was the final boss battle. BUT WAIT! After N's defeat, Ghetsis steps onto the scene, and decides to completely, utterly destroy his nice guy facade in the worst way possible. Think you'll be able to handle his villainy? If you have a weak stomach, turn away now.
To start, this monster INSULTS his son. You heard me right, INSULTS him not even two minutes after checking up on N. He calls him a useless "good for nothing", but man does it get worse from there. He then goes on to reveal his horrifying, downright nightmarish master plan that he had in mind for the Unova region: he had groomed N as a puppet from childhood he could use to control the masses and get everyone to release their Pokemon, that way he'd be the only one with Pokemon left! And once that's accomplished, he'll go on to, you guessed it, take over the world (well, region). OF COURSE!
And while he's revealing his plan he can't resist belting out a few more mean insults. "Warped defective boy" and "Too stupid" are other lovely terms he addresses his son as. And after being mean to his son, he goes on to challenge the trainer to a Pokemon battle that serves as this game's tough-as-hell final boss fight. When you beat him, he freaks out over his loss and is carted away, but not without getting off one last, heinous insult towards his son. This one is the grand mother of all awful things to call someone: "a freak without a human heart!" Man, what a mean dad.
Now after this set of games, Ghetsis is rescued by his personal trio of loyal bodyguards called the Shadow Trio, and goes into hiding for several years. He spends this time regrouping and rebranding Team Plasma, and comes out of the shadows just in time for the sequels, Black and White 2.
In these games, Team Plasma has dropped all subtlety and gone from the Pokemon world's equivalent to PETA into straight-up trouble-making douchecanoes. Ghetsis has his goons cause chaos in the Unova region by stealing Pokemon, making cities colder, and all kinds of other, awful things. Meanwhile, the big man himself is in command of the colossal airship known as the Plasma Frigate, which he uses to blast cities with ice created from the power of the Pokemon Kyurem. His ultimate plan here is to freeze over Unova until he has, you guessed it, taken over the region. (OF COURSE!)
Now late in the game, he shows that he isn't just all talk, he actually has his frigate go and make a popsicle out of the city of Opelucid. Thankfully, he's prevented from bringing an early winter to the rest of the region once the player tracks down the frigate and chases him into Kyruem's home, the Giant Chasm. Here, Ghetsis decides to do what any self-respecting villain would do and bump off the hero right off the bat by having Kyurem generate a bunch of sharp, pointy icicles that surround the hero. But before these icicles can close in and freeze over our hero, N rides in on the back of his legendary dragon and saves the heroes from an assumedly terrible poking. The kid tries to reason with dear old dad, but is shot down and insulted harshly again (Freak without a human heart is used again, specifically) before Ghetsis sics Kyurem on the hero. When the player fights back and stomps the ancient dragon, Ghetsis fights the hero himself, only to have his team whipped soundly. At this point he flies into hysterics, insulting his son EVEN MORE before being led away by the Plasma Trio, never to be seen again.
Is he heinous by the standards of the setting?
Oh BOY is he ever! Forget omnicidal lunatics like Cyrus and Lysandre, Ghetsis trumps them both. Being mean to his son, icing over cities, and trying to take over the world make trying to kill everybody look small-time!
Are there any mitigating qualities to consider?
Nope! Ghetsis is a selfish dick who uses everyone around him like a tool, and when he isn't manipulating, he's tossing around mean-spirited insults.
So in conclusion lAdies and gents... whoo BOY. I thought I've seen some Pretty nasty villains in my life. Palpatine, the JokeR, Red Skull, BraIniac, VidaL, the Scorpion Killer, Sauron... Forget all these small-time wannabes! Ghetsis is pretty much the highest, truest form of evil out there. He counts for SURE! WhO else wOuld be so crueL as to call their Son mean names?
edited 1st Apr '16 1:26:48 PM by FriedWarthog
I'll give an
to the sheer effort that was put into that Ghetsis post.
@nrjxll: The Crooked Man discussions never actually went anywhere the first two times. The first time, there was no effortpost, and only like 3 people voted (One of which has changed their vote to a
due to my elaboration) and the second time, the effortpost wasn't as elaborate as mine, and it was mostly ignored. So, technically, this is the first major discussion on him, and it seems like most are agreed he's a keeper.
edited 1st Apr '16 2:17:38 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Since it was decided that Dandy's image on the AHS page was to stay up, I think a new quote's necessary because Dandy also has the page quote. How's this for a replacement, from the same season:
edited 1st Apr '16 2:41:08 PM by Pwnisher248
for Nobu. It's been repeated earlier, but he's just not given enough focus. I got the feeling that Nobu was just following orders from higher up, and that he didn't have enough personal say in the Hand's actions. Plus, it's mostly his henchmen that do the dirty work for him.
edited 1st Apr '16 3:04:17 PM by chasemaddigan
It's not a bad suggestion by any means, but think I'll vote
on Hobgoblin.
As I see it, he's not really any nastier than he is in the main series, nor does his nastiness really "stand out".
Basically, the comic is Lighter and Softer so he looks worse by comparison but his actions aren't really sufficiently bad in themselves.
Also making it a bit of an odd situation is that this universe sort of "broke off" from the main setting so like any evil deeds committed prior to the divergence are still canonical.
Felt I'd lost my mind for a moment when I saw Ghetsis come up, but then I remembered what day this was.
Sincerity Mode time though - I have an honest question in regards to this, so please don't lynch me for it...during the time where Ghetsis was discussed, debated, voted down, and cut from the trope, did anyone ever even attempt to do a sincere effortpost for him just to be sure that everyone voting on the thread, non-Pokemon fans in particular, were getting proper context for the character and his crimes? Because if not I feel almost inclined to revisit his case, particularly since this is actually the five year anniversary of when I first played Ghetsis' first game in April 2011.
And while I feel the consensus will remain that game!Ghetsis is a bit too lacking in explicit on-screen heinous crimes to be a full example and that anime!Ghetsis is an obvious
, manga!Ghetsis, whose arc has yet to see it's conclusion, is the one incarnation of the character I can seriously see qualifying.
edited 8th Apr '16 10:17:25 AM by ANewMan
I know, and especially not back then in the cleanup thread's earlier days, but nowadays effort posts have been helping influence voting decisions about what examples go up or off, or stay up or stay off. Maybe an extensive effort post won't be necessary since most people are aware of the character and what he's done and lord knows just about everyone tires of the subject of his credentials coming up, but I just feel the need to make extra sure. Again, I still feel game!Ghetsis ends up a
no matter what.
If any controversy arises, give all your blame to Fried Warthog. I didn't bring the G-Man back to this thread, he did.
edited 1st Apr '16 4:11:35 PM by ANewMan
I'm debating whether to bring up that Inside Out villain from the aforementioned story I wrote, if only because I don't want anyone to lynch me for talking about a fanfiction villain.
.
Whoa, I wasn't seriously trying to reopen any discussion on Ghetsis. I just knew from all my years of lurking that he was a VERY contentious candidate who people hate talking about, and thought a mock-effortpost would make for a silly April Fool's Day prank. If anyone is actually angry or has their feathers ruffled, I'm deeply, truly sorry.
On the Fanfiction subject, quite honestly, as long as the villain isn't too out of place in the setting (no rape, no mutilation, no graphic, messy, gorey torture_ and the fic has a proper plot, I honestly have no problem discussing villains from it. The genre has a REALLY bad reputation, but I wouldn't mind seeing some villains that actually work come up here as proposals. So by all means, go ahead!
edited 1st Apr '16 4:26:33 PM by FriedWarthog
On whether my villain is "out-of-place"... It's an Inside Out fic, but the tone is more like The Hunchback Of Notre Dame.
Why so serious?Yeah, Ghetsis is a candidate who's absolutely pissed me off due to some tiring wars on another website that were waged on whether or not he was a candidate.
But no harm being done here. If it's in good spirits and it's just to mock how little he qualifies, I'm all for it.
![]()
Inside Out isn't really a setting I can conceivably see with a Monster. Hell, it's not even a setting I can see with a proper villain. Still, I'm open to see what the candidate might be.
edited 1st Apr '16 4:37:16 PM by Scraggle

![[up] [up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png)
It's moreso on the basis that the movie's purely shock value; I'm not arguing whether or not it's actually a good movie, especially when I'm personally a fan of the Final Destination series, and see the later Saw movies (except IV) as Guilty Pleasures.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.