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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

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Edited by nombretomado on Sep 23rd 2019 at 4:42:19 AM

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Feb 3rd 2012 at 6:33:26 AM

[up][up] Moral Event Horizon is for actions. Complete Monster is for characters. A character can commit Moral Event Horizon level actions while still being an Anti-Villain. (Dent from The Dark Knight, or Mal from Inception, come to mind.)

Though Would Hurt a Child doesn't always imply Moral Event Horizon either; it depends on various aspects of how it's portrayed.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
tsstevens Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did from Reading tropes such as Righting Great Wrongs Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
Feb 3rd 2012 at 7:01:30 AM

Let's see...

The character must personally engage in a series of truly horrendous acts, and the story makes no attempt to gloss these over or present them in a positive light.

The quote might come up in other missions, but in The Omega Program the object is to wipe out the base that is producing clones of Yuriko, a severely messed up, sad, powerful Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. So we'd need to see whether that makes it okay.

The character's terribleness must be played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story.

In story Natasha's fearsomeness is legendary. Part of her backstory from memory is her training on gulag prisoners. However the game is pure camp with only a few serious servings thrown in.

There is no adequate justification or Freudian Excuse to balance out the misdeeds.

In this instance? It might possibly be passed off as trying to stop the Japanese, but killing children or discussing or asking about killing children is probably not adequate.

The character must show no regret or remorse for their actions, however terrible.

None, none whatsoever.

Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption without being considered a Karma Houdini.

Natasha does work with the Allies, before the Soviets betray them.

So...armed with this information how well would Natasha fit?

Currently reading up My Rule-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours
SeptimusHeap Christmas worms from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Feb 3rd 2012 at 7:05:25 AM

About Horrible deeds personally: I'd say that the killing children stuff suffices. About No redemption, I fail to see what the Allies and Soviets matter here, so I would say that no, there is no redemption.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Feb 3rd 2012 at 7:43:00 AM

I think the first point is the disqualifier. In context, it seems like a I Did What I Had to Do moment. Even if the target is an innocent child, trying to kill a production line making apocalypse-causing woobies to prevent some flavor of Apocalypse How is, depending on who is doing it, more along the lines of Anti-Hero/Anti-Villain behavior.

edited 3rd Feb '12 7:43:14 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
tsstevens Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did from Reading tropes such as Righting Great Wrongs Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
Feb 3rd 2012 at 12:24:28 PM

To place the mission in context the mission is part of a collection where Natasha, and by extension the Soviets (or Allies or Imperials) and you are working for the military contractors Futuretech. Each mission has the Mega-Corp pit you against one or more commander from the different factions, who are for the most part not acting as antagonists, rather quietly working away on their projects. In The Omega Program for example the Imperial commander Takara is working on Yuriko, and basically Futuretech want her for themselves.

Currently reading up My Rule-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Feb 3rd 2012 at 12:45:29 PM

It's close, but I feel like that particular instance just isn't far enough. It's not quite the level of depravity that I'd expect out of a Complete Monster. If there are other instances of terrible behavior, this could be used as supporting evidence. But it's short of the standard, I think.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Feb 3rd 2012 at 1:30:15 PM

[up]Well, there was the mention in a previous post that she practised her sniping skills on gulag prisoners.

What's precedent ever done for us?
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Feb 3rd 2012 at 1:36:18 PM

I did note the part about practicing on gulag prisoners... I think the targeting the Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is worse, but still not enough. To put it bluntly, unless there is more evidence than what has already been presented, I have to say no.

The big reason for this thread is because we're trying to make a distinction between "unapologetically evil" and full-fledged Complete Monster status. This character strikes me as falling into the former.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Feb 3rd 2012 at 3:28:40 PM

I would disagree wtih the Command and Conquer example, since most of it happens off screen. Sure she asks why not kill the children too, but does she actually kill any? Do we see her practicing on gulag prisoners?

Off Screen Villiany should only supplement a CM's status, not be the main evidence for it.

Also, did we reach an agreement on what examples to cut?

tsstevens Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did from Reading tropes such as Righting Great Wrongs Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
Feb 3rd 2012 at 4:55:34 PM

Not sure if It specific to the one mission but the quote does c

Currently reading up My Rule-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours
Feb 7th 2012 at 6:48:41 PM

I don't really know the etiquette for removing examples, but I'd like to put these examples up for deletion. Big Mom and the Five Elder Stars from One Piece, and General Raven from Fullmetal Alchemist

Big Mom: So far she's eaten one of her own crewmen alive and destroyed islands in the past for not giving her enough candy. It's not that these actions aren't bad, it's just that they're standard fair for One Piece villains. They're usually introduced with a fiercesome reputation centered around Off Stage Villainy and a Kickthe Dog moment to show they're a Jerkass. Whether or not they become C Ms usually is only determined with time. Mom may count later on, but until she does more I think she should be deleted.

The Five Elder Stars: They're virtually unknown as individuals, and there are hints that their actions (such as the Buster Call on Ohara) had Well-Intentioned Extremist motives behind them. It's the same as Mom, they may count later on but until more is known about them and their motives, they should probably be deleted.

General Raven: He's really no different than any other member of the Central Government. He never personally does anything bad, outside of being lecherous, and he ultimately just comes across as a pathetic pawn being played by Father.

edited 7th Feb '12 6:53:38 PM by OccasionalExister

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Feb 8th 2012 at 7:45:01 AM

Well, I've only been keeping up with the official release of One Piece, so I can't really comment on Big Mom (I guess it would depend on just how much of her actions have been on-screen). But I completely agree on the Five Elder Stars - particularly as it comes off more as Well-Intentioned Extremist actions or I Did What I Had to Do. That should be cut.

While I'm not familiar with Fullmetal Alchemist all that much, it sounds like Raven should be cut as well.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Feb 8th 2012 at 10:22:14 AM

Yeah, Raven's an unrepentant asshole, but he's basically like the rest of Central Command, IE minor villain that's child's play compared to the major villains.

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros
Azor Ahai
Feb 8th 2012 at 6:55:25 PM

Raven should definitely be deleted. Besides the above comments, his backstory is that of a Father to His Men and man of integrity, which raises the possibility of him being a Fallen Hero.

edited 8th Feb '12 6:58:24 PM by Jordan

Hodor
Feb 10th 2012 at 9:08:26 PM

Ok so there seems to be a consensus on Raven at least. As for Big Mom, if it helps, the only thing sheís done onscreen is eating one of her own crewmen alive and even that was given a Gory Discretion Shot. All of the island destroying sheís done has been either only threatened or occurred offscreen.

This might be piling it on, but I also think these three characters from the Bleach page should be reviewed to determine if they truly qualify for the trope: Yukio, Kugo Ginjo, and Shukuro Tsukishima. Judging from what Iíve read I think they donít apply, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's been following the manga more closely. Most of the following info comes from the Bleach wiki and character page, so if itís not fully accurate I apologize.

Yukio: In general, itís never a good sign when it looks like a page example is arguing with itself. The article listed for Yukio makes him sound more like a Jerkass Woobie than a monster. The main Kickthe Dog moment listed is that he tries to kill his ally, Jackie, after sheís lost her fight to Renji, by attempting to destroy the pocket dimension they were in. He didnít look happy doing it though, and he appeared kind of sad when she apparently died. And later, after it turns out she was still alive, he seems happy she survived and even said heíd offer her and other Fullbring members a job in the future, once he's grown up more.

Ginjo: His past is a bit ambiguous, with some hints making him seem like a Fallen Hero that abandoned his job because he found out his superiors mistrusted him and restricted his abilities. Also, he took a young Tsukishima under his wing and raised him so the kid wouldnít be alone in the world anymore. Apparently, he recruited all the other members of Xcution for similar reasons, so they could get stronger and survive. He was also willing to share all of Ichigoís Fullbring power with them, except for Moe who he planned on killing. And, after taking Ichigoís fullbring powers, he plans on sparing him, having never had any intention to kill him in the first place. Finally, his death is definitely supposed to be an Alas, Poor Villain with him regretfully wondering What Could Have Been if Ichigo had been the first Substitute Soul Reaper instead of him.

Tsukishima: He might be the meanest example listed of the three, since heís a sadist who likes committing Mind Rape and causing mental breakdowns. He also seems to be one of the few villains to cause Ichigo the most personal pain. However, he obviously cares about Ginjo, to the point where he begs him not to die and has a Villainous Breakdown when Ginjo actually does. Also, when Ginjo orders him to kill Moe, Tsukishimaís minion/fanboy, Tsukishima seems disappointed about his bossís decision. Itís kind of unclear if Tsukishima died or not at the end of the arc, but if he did itís clearly meant to be another Alas, Poor Villain, as heís in mourning for Ginjo and his last words to Moe are a thanks for not leaving him alone. Itís pretty much the only time heís ever shown Moe any appreciation or affection rather than his usual indifference/threats.

edited 10th Feb '12 9:16:09 PM by OccasionalExister

Nocturna Seeking for Light
Seeking for Light
Feb 11th 2012 at 8:34:13 AM

As someone who reads the manga weekly, I can say that none of them qualify. Going through point-by-point:

  • The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.
    • All three fail here: Tsukishima gets his moments of sympathy, Ginjo, while bad, is nowhere near as awful as Aizen, and they make it pretty clear he's lashing out in reaction to Soul Society's less-than-wonderful treatment of him, and Yukio is more a Spoiled Brat with major parent-issues than anything else.
  • The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.
    • Tsukishima does qualify here, but only on the side of the good guys. The bad guys like him.
    • Ginjo does not end up qualifying: Ichigo's final feelings more closely resemble pity than anything else.
    • Yukio doesn't qualify; he gets a "Meh" from everyone.
  • They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.
    • Tsukishima fails. He is totally loyal to Ginjo, and seems to have a degree of fondness for the other members of Xcution.
    • Ginjo fails. He took the members of Xcution under his wing in order to protect and help them. He also dies wondering whether he acted in the right way after all.
    • Yukio fails. For all that he killed his parents, he seems to be struggling with a lot of guilt over it.

non-spoiler tag-ridden version

edited 11th Feb '12 8:37:34 AM by Nocturna

Feb 12th 2012 at 11:31:35 AM

brony99 is back. I have new arguments for my viewpoints on this trope now. and yes, I still want to talk about Discord but I have other characters to discuss too.

also, even when someone else tried to argue against the second criteria, the thread was locked. no one wants to even discuss it?

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Feb 12th 2012 at 11:48:18 AM

I'll give him props - it was nice of him to announce that he was a ban-evader in his very first post.

Very civilised and efficient.

What's precedent ever done for us?
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Feb 12th 2012 at 11:50:24 AM

Out of curiosity, why was his post not thumped?

And what's the status of this anyway? Has any page been locked yet?

SeptimusHeap Christmas worms from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Feb 12th 2012 at 12:08:59 PM

Because it isn't thumpworthy by itself. And more on-topic, several pages are already locked, I don't know which ones tough.

Feb 12th 2012 at 3:49:15 PM

Of those, Mass Effect, Fable, GTA, Fallout, Metal Gear, Professional Wrestling and Tabletop games are all pages that were locked because they were considered cleaned up. The others were all locked because of edit wars.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Feb 12th 2012 at 11:17:27 PM

For the Bleach examples, by the sounds of it, I have no problem with those examples being removed.

For Big Mom... I would argue that a Gory Discretion Shot does not DQ someone from qualifying for Complete Monster - just because the artist doesn't show the actual fore doesn't mean it didn't happen and in view of the active story. It happens in the course of the story; just not depicted for the sake of the audience.

That said, if that's the only thing the character has been shown to do so far, I would have to say no. Of course, eating a crew member in cold blood is a really vicious thing to do, and if the character does more despicable acts on the page, I would include the eating of a crew member among the qualifiers for the trope if she qualifies in the future.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Feb 13th 2012 at 4:06:25 PM

Alright, I'll delete any bad examples that we agreed upon to reduce the number of examples. Do we want to keep going? Incidently, are there any subpages we want to nominate for lockage now to keep them cleaned up?


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