During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Blofeld
Fun Blofeld-related fact: the villains of the book version of Diamonds Are Forever, the Spang Brothers and their Spangled Mob, are the only literary Bond villains to have never been adapted. Their scheme was, but it became just one arm of SPECTRE's octopus rather than the whole plot. I can see why. They're boring. Lord are they boring. They're like a totally mundane gangster version of a Generic Doomsday Villain.
Yeah, from what I hear, not using the Spangs is one of the few things Diamonds are Forever did right. Man, that movie got unwatchable fast. Wint and Kidd were entertaining, Charles Gray was a decent villain (that said, he was my least-favourite Blofeld), the opening was cool, and there was some decent action, but otherwise, it's easily the worst of Connery's Bond movies.
I admit to some reticence (I agree with Hamburger Time; Blofeld's inspired a ton of trappings that are cliché nowadays, but that doesn't dilute his crimes), but given the destructive scope of his plans, his total Lack of Empathy, being an iconic Bad Boss (his appearances in From Russia with Love and Thunderball both have him kill off an unsatisfactory subordinate in a pretty horrific manner), and his selfish motives... hell, his resources and destructive potential dwarf the other Connery-era CM (Goldfinger).
to Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
edited 16th Mar '16 7:24:17 PM by DeCarta
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The older Spang, Seraffimo, does have the Bond-ian villain quirk of being obsessed with the Old West, but he's only in like three chapters and honestly it just made me kind of sad for him. I felt like this guy doesn't need a secret agent to shoot him in the face, he needs a caring mental ward to get him some help.
And that's not a reaction I want to have to an evil mastermind character.
On another note, I remember when I first saw Digimon Frontier: Island of Lost Digimon I felt that the Big Bad, Murmukusmon, was one of the more sinister Digimon villains from the first four seasons (I hadn't yet seen Savers/Data Squad by that point). Does anyone else who has seen the film think that he could be a possible contender? Here's a brief summary of him, taken from the Digimon wiki
:
'' In the past, Murmukusmon was banished to the Lost Island for his evil deeds. There, he discovered the sealed Ornismon and the prophecy to revive him by gathering fractal code. He destroyed the inscriptions in order to prevent anyone from figuring out his plans and then assumed control of both the Human Digimon and Beast Digimon by becoming their leaders as Darcmon and Hippogriffomon respectively. As leader of the two armies, he is able to incite hostilities and prolong the war as long as he wants, drawing out sacrifices on each side.
Murmukusmon eventually realizes that he is close to having enough fractal code and arranges for a final confrontation for the two groups. Unfortunately for him, the Digi Destined are present on the island, where they reveal his duplicity. It is for naught, however, as he takes the stage at that moment to absorb all of the dead Digimon from that battle and use it to revive Ornismon. Murmukusmon then shows his true form, riding Ornismon as a ruler. Though he is strong, fending off attacks by all of the Digi Destined, his previous subordinates turn against him and Ornismon for his betrayal. Their attacks are enough to distract him, and Agunimon uses the confusion to strike a fatal blow on the would-be ruler, defeating him for good. ''
I know it doesn't sound like much, so a proper effort post will be needed, but I'm wondering if it would be worth considering. I don't think he's been proposed in this thread before.
edited 16th Mar '16 8:05:52 PM by speyeker
So, out of curiosity, what's everybody's favorite and least favorite CM. My favorite is Koba due to him being legitimately threatening and having a story arc from hero to villain.
My least favorite is Prime Minister Honest. His character sheet once said he was almost a Generic Doomsday Villain, and he does seem to have little characterization besides being a Jerkass.
Why so serious?I'm gonna give a
to Blofeld, and while I'm at it, propose a... well, a rather bizarre example.
You see, I got wind of a rather bizarre Turkish cult film made in the sixties that, of all things, featured Captain America, Spider-Man, and old-school luchador Santo (All of whom were used without permission from their creators, of course) as the main characters of a crime thriller called 3 Dev Adam, sometimes translated as 3 Giant Men or Three Big Men. Basically, the plot has Captain America and Santo teaming up fighting an Istanbul-based gang of counterfeiters led by the sadistic, bloodthirsty... SPIDER-MAN! Yeah, it's that kind of movie. So without further ado, it's time for an effort post I thought I'd never see myself making...
Who is Spider-Man?
It goes without saying that Spider-Man as we know him is a teenaged superhero with spider powers who fights a slew of colorful baddies over in New York. This Spidey however is a violent, sadistic multiple murderer and counterfeiter who has a penchant for killing people in over-the-top violent ways and hammy laughs. Oh, and he doesn't have any spider powers, but can come back from the dead multiple times. More on that later.
He's running a massive counterfeiting/smuggling organization where he has historic artifacts stolen and sold to antique dealers, only to have his cohorts buy them back for millions of counterfeit dollars so he can accumulate tons of money and artifacts while keeping the counterfeit bills in circulation. Basically, he's meant to be a masked master criminal that the film's director decided to make into Spider-Man for... reasons. Probably for box office draw, I don't freaking know.
What Has He Done?
Well, the film opens with Spider-Man (Or if you prefer, just Spider. He's usually called that in this movie) having a woman he was trying to get information from buried up to her neck in sand by a few of his cronies, and then executes her by backing up a boat until it reduces her head to a bloody mess. If you haven't gotten the hint that this isn't the Spider-Man we all know and love... yeah.
Next, Spider's being tailed by some guys from the mafia, who he's been ripping off. He has a few of them killed by some goons of his, then he comes bursting out of some woodwork and kills the last mobster with a switchblade, taunting his victim with a mocking "Adios, mafia!".
Then later in the movie, Captain America's girlfriend who is a part of Spider's task force is able to sneak into one of his hideouts and gets her hands on some incriminating info only to be caught by Spider's sadistic red-haired girlfriend (who I guess is supposed to be a stand-in for Mary Jane Watson? You've got me) and carted off to another hideout of Spider's. When he's told that his cronies have her hostage, he plans on making a visit to deal with her himself, likely planned to have her killed in a brutal way. However, Captain America comes in and saves the day, freeing his girlfriend and beating the thugs holding her hostage. When Spider shows up, he notices Cap and runs for it, resulting in a rather goofily-coordinated fight/chase scene that ends with Spider's escape.
Now that he knows that he's being pursued, Spider decides to steal the rest of the artifacts he's after as fast as he can, kill Captain America, and quit town before he gets caught. He follows up by robbing a rich woman's house, and attacks the woman while she's bathing and kills her by slowly suffocating her with her pearl necklace before grabbing her statue and running. He celebrates his victory by gloating to his girlfriend and sharing a few evil laughs.
He was planning on more robberies and brutal murders, but thanks to Santo nabbing his list of addresses to hit from one of his men, he's prevented from doing so thanks to our heroes getting the police to watch houses. Furious that he's been foiled, he calls over the man who had his list of addresses written down and has him killed for both failing and lying to him about their mission not being compromised by feeding him to starving, bloodthirsty guinea pigs (Well they're CALLED mice, but they're clearly guinea pigs. Once again, yeah. It's that kind of movie). He's able to pull off one more murder/robbery though: he attacks a couple having sex in a shower by impaling them both at once, and his men elsewhere kill a maid and the rich woman she works for.
This is pretty much where his really heinous deeds end. His next appearances have him steal more statues while Captain America and Santo fight several body doubles of his, and later on when Cap and Santo are taken hostage while trying to infiltrate a nightclub he has connections with, he and his girlfriend show up on the scene to kill them. However, they get free, take out his henchman, Spider's girlfriend gets shot and killed by a henchman's misfire, and Spider flees. What follows is a seriously BIZARRE fight scene where Cap seemingly kills him over and over again, only for an unharmed Spider to show up seconds later belting out an evil laugh (Which brings us back to his unexplained Resurrection based power. Yet again, yeah. It's THAT kinda movie). Cap kills him over and over until Spider finally dies for good after getting his head crushed by a shipping container.
Is he heinous enough? And does he possess redeeming qualities?
To the first, it's a resounding yes. While he's mainly a smuggler, counterfeiter, and thief, he has a sick, twisted obsession with killing people through seriously cruel and sadistic ways, usually not NEEDING to do so when he can simply take his stolen goods and run. As for the second, he certainly does not. He seems to have a good relationship with his girlfriend (who he gets a strange sex scene with), but he shows no concern for her when she dies and runs for the hills without any sign of being saddened by her death.
Most importantly, is he taken seriously enough?
In this case, yeah. It's one of those weird cases where the work is silly and narmy thanks to weird writing, bizarre characterization (forget brutal murdering Spider-Man, Santo has a weird fixation with sticking things down his pants and Cap doesn't even have a shield!), and hilariously bad fight scene choreography, but the villain is treated seriously enough in-universe to qualify. He isn't played for laughs and is viewed as a sick, twisted psycho by the people who aren't in his gang. There are a few scenes that are intentionally comedic, but most of them don't involve Spider. The one that does draws humor from a drunk guy feeling weirded out by watching Spider-Man run away from Captain America during their first chase scene, not from Spider-Man himself.
So in summation: Yeah. Once again, I didn't see me making this kind of effort post coming AT ALL, but as odd as it sounds to say it, this Spider-Man, Spider counts, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'm eager to see what you guys think.
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Oh, and my favorite Complete Monster?
I dunno, I really liked Warden Norton from the Shawshank Redemption. I loved how manipulative and twisted he was, and the scene where he threatens to destroy everything Andy worked for and let the Sisters rape him again was downright chilling. One of my favorite examples where a seemingly nice, friendly guy turns out to be a cold, remorseless psychopath, and Bob Gunton's performance was brilliant.
My least favorite? I really, REALLY found Unalaq from The Legend of Korra to be an absolute bore. He was just a rather dull, uninteresting character who seemed like an interesting villain at the surface, but had little going for him when his true colors were shown. He could have made for a compelling Anti Villain/Well-Intentioned Extremist, but he was just... bleh.
edited 16th Mar '16 9:39:23 PM by FriedWarthog
I'm gonna
Spider-Man. I'm certain that violates the "no unfitting Ron the Death Eater types" rule. Then again, I wasn't anticipating THIS when I wrote that rule. This movie does sound fucking amazing, though.
I don't know if it's meant to be an unfitting Ron the Death Eater example though. I mean... it feels like it was meant to be a generic crime thriller until the director decided to turn its heroes into Santo and Captain America in-name-only and the villain into Spider-Man in-name-only for god knows what reason. I wish I understood weird bootleg filmmaker's logic. The way I would describe it is it being almost like a bootleg video game where character sprites are replaced with different ones to sucker in buyers if that makes any sense at all.
But honestly, the film was a kinda meh experience all around. Boring for the most part, but the surrealty of the damn thing was oddly entertaining.
edited 16th Mar '16 10:03:03 PM by FriedWarthog
I have a somewhat interesting question to bring up regarding Balendin from the Chronicle of the Unhewn Throne. He's already listed as a CM, and I'd certainly not dispute it, but his entry on the trilogy's YMMV page was clearly written with only the first book in mind; Balendin has what appears to be a Disney Villain Death at the end of it, albeit with Never Found the Body in full effect. However, the next two books show that Balendin survived - and he gets worse. Much, much worse. IMO, easily the vilest character in the entire series, his only two challengers for the position operating under Blue-and-Orange Morality of varying shades. I really think Balendin's entry should be updated to reflect that, but the trilogy's concluding volume only just came out earlier this week. Does the two-week-wait rule for proposing a new entry apply for revising an existing one? If not, I can provide a summary of his deeds in books two and three; if so, I'll wait on it, but either way, I think this should be addressed.
However, the entry as it stands includes Balendin's compatriot Sami Yurl as a CM as well. Vile as Yurl is, however, I think Balendin's actions in the later books thoroughly overshadow him, and there's some implication that Balendin was manipulating him all along (admittedly, the biggest piece of evidence in favor of this is from Balendin's own mouth, and his ego is fairly considerable so it may not be entirely reliable). I'd honestly consider cutting Yurl, as he fails to meet the heinous standard his one-time ally later sets. But that's a secondary concern at the moment.
edited 16th Mar '16 9:59:23 PM by MasterGhandalf
Well I was going to delete it out of embarrassment, but if you found it genuinely entertaining then I suppose I'll leave it up.
And I'm sorry for my earlier angry outburst: I genuinely wasn't trying to be or act stupid, I just decided to check out a weird cult film for the hell of it and thought the effortpost would be accepted since it's a proper film that happens to use licensed characters for rather odd purposes. I thought people would be more than happy to accept such a bizarre example and that we could have a laugh over the prospect of something as silly as a bastardized murdering nutcase version of Spider-Man actually making the cut. Now I feel discouraged and humiliated for making an ass of myself.
You didn't make an ass of yourself at all! It was a solid effort here. I myself am undecided, and I found it quite bizarrely amusing that such a thing could exist.
Honestly, I lean more towards it counting. After Turkish Star Wars, nothing really shocks me all too much. It's not like this is a shitty fan fic written by a board teen in five minutes. The film seems to try to have a plot.
And honestly, by standards of Turkish cinema, this one seems downright coherent. Hell, Japan had a Spider Man series with giant robots...which was far superior to the Spiderman manga where our hero mopes about unable to save anyone
edited 16th Mar '16 11:09:59 PM by Lightysnake
