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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5401: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:41:40 PM

I think he means that is a drastic measure. We are doing it with Five-Man Band but did we decide on proceeding the same way with Complete Monster?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#5402: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:45:45 PM

I'd like to add Hyuga Hiashi and Uchiha Itachi from Team 8 to the Complete Monster fanfiction page. Hiashi is an abusive father who disguises training regiments as excuses to abuse and degrade Hinata. He also seems to have been one of the people behind Kurenai's team dying on top of one of the top conspirators in how Naruto has been treated during the fic.

And Itachi has a Lack of Empathy, his Uchiha Massacre was just that in the story, he killed everyone but Sasuke just to see if he could. And he killed Kurenai in such a fast way, Kisame of all people was disturbed.

edited 5th Dec '12 2:49:57 PM by SuperSaiyaMan

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#5403: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:48:24 PM

@32_Footsteps: When you say that's your "final write-up" for Monster.Web Original, do you mean "final list of examples" or "this is exactly what's going on the page"? Because I think some of those examples could use rewording, primarily for excessive use of inflation and some stuff that reads like Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5404: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:48:46 PM

[up][up]More detail please. Given the level of Ron the Death Eater going on there, I'd like a list of how this particular fanfic differs from the Naruto canon in general.

[up][up][up]That aimed at me? Cause I've been doing it this way for months with no complaints.

edited 5th Dec '12 2:49:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5405: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:49:30 PM

@5402: Hiashi seems to fail in heinousness compared to Itachi then.

@5404: Yes. I don't follow this thread that closely.

edited 5th Dec '12 2:50:32 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5406: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:52:36 PM

I need way more detail to understand the Team 8 examples. I don't know who any of the Naruto characters are, so saying that "so bad X was disturbed" isn't much of a reason for me.

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#5407: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:53:23 PM

edited 5th Dec '12 2:56:30 PM by SuperSaiyaMan

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5408: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:57:03 PM

A Kick the Dog moment isn't going to qualify in a fic where there is a massacre perpetrator.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5409: Dec 5th 2012 at 3:06:39 PM

[up][up][up]I can fill you in a little bit on Itachi at least. In the regular canon, Itachi is the older brother of series deuteragonist Uchiha Sasuke. Before the series began, Itachi murdered their entire clan except for Sasuke, whom he instead mind raped into submission, gloating that he killed the clan simply to see if he could. He also mocks Sasuke for not being able to kill him, and leaves him to live with the guilt of that. Years later he shows up, tries to kidnap Naruto, and beats the tar out of Sasuke and Kakashi mind raping them both in the process, trapping them in illusions based on their worst fears. Finally, during his climactic battle with Sasuke, he reveals that he orchestrated their entire enmity so that Sasuke would become powerful enough to make Itachi stealing and implanting his eyes worthwhile.

All of this is eventually revealed to be BS. Itachi killed the clan because they were plotting a coup d'etat, let Sasuke live because he didn't want to kill him (and is too much of a freaking tool to anticipate the effects that mentally raping the kid twice might have on him) and threw the last fight so that he could die at Sasuke's hands, in pennance for his actions.

From what the OP has said, this fic ignores The Reveal, and plays Itachi's cover persona straight. Assuming that's the case he might well deserve a place on the fanfic page.

EDIT: Kisame, who they say is disturbed by Itachi's actions, is canonically, Itachi's partner in crime. A giant sharkman who enjoys tearing people to ribbons with his bfs, Kisame, like Itachi projects a public persona of being an utter psycho (in his case that of a Psycho for Hire Blood Knight who just likes hurting people). Underneath he's quite different, but from the level of Ron the Death Eater going on here I rather doubt that the fic runs with that.

edited 5th Dec '12 3:08:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#5410: Dec 5th 2012 at 3:09:16 PM

[up]Exactly. Itachi's entire persona is played straight.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5411: Dec 5th 2012 at 3:27:46 PM

I just realised I forgot to PM the guy who added Al La Flaga to the YMMV page for Gundam SEED; that is now done. As a heads up to anyone who cares, Al in no way, shape, or form counts. He's a Jerkass Abusive Dad in a show with three different men who are hellbent on the destruction of a good portion of the human race. He may well be one of the most contemptible characters I've ever encountered (he locked his son away in a Big Fancy House and cloned himself) but he ain't Azrael.

edited 5th Dec '12 3:30:08 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Montegoraon Since: Jan, 2011
#5412: Dec 5th 2012 at 4:22:17 PM

[up] I'm that guy. I could explain my reasoning, but I don't see any reason to bother. Since Al is a Posthumous Character, anything he did falls under the No Offstage Villainy rule anyway. I just want to note that that rule isn't on the Complete Monster trope page itself.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5413: Dec 5th 2012 at 4:27:55 PM

[up]It is on the first page of this thread however, and this thread is where all decisions on what constitutes a CM are made as the concession to keep the whole trope from getting axed.

tsstevens Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did from Reading tropes such as Righting Great Wrongs Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
#5414: Dec 5th 2012 at 4:38:02 PM

On Liar Liar Samantha Cole is listed as a Complete Monster. She's certainly diskish but there are much better examples that were shot down so I thought it'd be good to get discussion on this one.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5415: Dec 5th 2012 at 4:40:59 PM

[up]Cut. It's a Jim Carey Comedy movie for Christ's sake, what could she and that other person (who the example I checked seemed to be entirely off-screen villiany) have done to get labeled Complete Monsters?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5416: Dec 5th 2012 at 4:51:35 PM

Absolutely freakin' nothing. She's a terrible person who bilks her ex husband for money and custody of the kids. She's a common jerk, that's it

TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5417: Dec 5th 2012 at 6:06:58 PM

I'm questioning Mechakara's entry in Web Original Complete Monster page, on the basis of heinousness. Specifically, one show of Atop the Fourth Wall had Linkara captured and bound by Mechakara, who was rooting through Linkara's stuff looking for... something. Either way, he still did a whole episode, jokes and all, while helpless and threatened by Mechakara. That doesn't strike me as particularly heinous.

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
Lightflame Stick of the Fallen from where you can't find me Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Drowning in your pond, hoping you'll notice me
Stick of the Fallen
#5418: Dec 5th 2012 at 6:16:13 PM

Shouldn't Monster.Web Original be changed to Monster.New Media?

"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#5419: Dec 5th 2012 at 6:30:56 PM

Regarding Liar Liar: I just saw that and American History X for my Sociology class (Not Psychology, go figure), and I want to cut those examples because: it's a comedy, Carrey's character does worse things than Cole, and Mr.Allan is a nice friendly man who suffers from Offstage Villainy and Informed Ability.

American History X: Henry, the kid who shoots Danny in the end was influenced by his brother similarly to how Danny was influenced by his own to go to racial violence. They mention that he qualifies because his screen time got cut, that is not a disqualifier. Also, even if his screentime did get cut, there are worse people: Seth is a bigot, and attempted more murders than one, but he's sometimes played for laughs, and not truly heinous, and Cameron is one of the biggest bigots, and he suffers from Offstage Villainy.

Regarding Mechakarra: His crimes include assaulting Linkara, killing Cable (a one off charcter), killing the Linkara from the universe he came from and wearing his skin (the murder was offscreen), he later went on to Mind Rape Linkara into attempting suicide, he grew giant and rampage through a city, and in the movie special he turned Todd and Nostalgia Chick into robots in a process which was indicated to be quite painful via Gory Discretion Shot, and later went on to try and kill the villains of the story because they pissed him off.

edited 5th Dec '12 6:34:17 PM by DrPsyche

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5420: Dec 5th 2012 at 7:36:09 PM

@ 5412

Welcome to the forum anyway. Feel free to stick around.

Anyway, it seems that while I was occupied with other things somebody added a whole host of CM examples to the Smallville YMMV page. For those who don't know, Smallville was a retelling of the Superman origin crossed with a soap opera and much bad writing. As someone who, I am sad to confess, watched every episode, I thought I'd post the entries and my thoughts on them here.

  • Brainiac. He has no redeeming qualities, ruthlessly manipulates those around him with sneering contempt, tries to unleash Zod to enslave the world, and later begins draining people of their trace minerals in order to re-build himself, murders his creator and finally body-jacks Chloe while attempting to end all life on Earth via Doomsday. During the commission of the aforementioned crimes, he experiments on victims using various deadly diseases, and twice unleashes a lethal computer virus. The first one shuts down most the planet as a distraction while he works to unleash Zod; the second one is part of his end-the-world-plot. He infects Mrs. Kent with a Kryptonian disease to make Clark help him in Season 5, and puts Lana in a coma in Season 7 in order to achieve the same end, before trapping Kara in the Phantom Zone, taking her place, and revealing Clark's secret to Lex. And oh yeah, in a Bad Future, he and Lex were going to nuke half the world so they could remake it in their image. He's treated with fear and revulsion by Clark, the Legion of Super-Heroes and even Bizarro, and actually gets the Legion to consider performing a Shoot the Dog on Chloe when he was inhabiting her. While he eventually Heel Face Turns it's after being forcibly reprogrammed by the Legion, and thus doesn't count.

I rewrote most of this entry a long time ago, and it still holds up. As a long-running antagonist with no moral compass, no empathy, and a substantial attempted bodycount, Brainiac is the standard to which villains on Smallville need to aspire. While you could contend that Season 5 Brainiac was being controlled by Zod and therefore lacked moral agency, Season 7 & 8 Brainiac is a free agent and still behaves exactly the same way. Easily the worst villain on the show. Keep.

  • Lx-3 starts out by burning all the other clones and trying to murder a five year-old, successfully murders everyone at Cadmus, and ends with kidnapping, bombing and a Sadistic Choice. Not bad for a guy who appears in one episode.

For a single-episode villain Lx-3 (a psychopathic clone of Lex Luthor who was judged to be so irredeemable that LuthorCorp personnel had him locked up) manages to do a lot. Between committing mass murder in the first minutes of the episode he appears in, attempting to kill a child, slaughtering the Cadmus staff with a blowtorch (which happens offscreen but we see the bodies and good lord it isn't pretty), and trying to level the Daily Planet (and a good chunk of downtown Metropolis) while simultaneously burning Lois at the stake, he easily meets the heinous standard. This gets even better if you know that Lx-3 is physically somewhere in his advanced old age, is dying from clone degeneration, and possesses none of the resources available to Lex, Brainiac, or even the average Freak of the Week. Keep.

  • There are at least several one/two episode characters that undoubtedly qualify for this too. Some of the best examples include Ian Randall, James Gibson (Ryan James' unspeakably nasty stepfather), Harry Bolston, Sean Kelvin ( at least after he crosses the Moral Event Horizon), and Jason Dante. Most one episode villains are portrayed with some sort of understandable motive or cause for the way they are (or at least something that makes you feel bad for them), but other guys like these ones are just complete psychopaths with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

James Gibson does very little onscreen and is, at the end of the day, an abusive dad on a show that was not only full of them (including recurring antagonist, Lionel Luthor), but also contained far worse villains. Ian Randall is a slimeball who used his ability to split into two people to date Lana and Chloe at the same time, then tried to kill them to cover it up. Harry Bolsten tried to kill the jurors who sentenced him years ago. Sean Kelvin needs to absorb heat from people in order to survive, though he clearly enjoys it far too much. Jason Dante is a bookie and street racer who tries to kill off the competition. All of them are single episode villains who don't come close to causing the kind of chaos that Lx-3 does. I could see Sean Kelvin maybe counting, due to his misogyny, and the very creepy Serial Killer overtones to his victim selection, but he's the only one. Cut.

  • Oneshot villain Bob Rickman from season one who has the power to brainwash people with a handshake. Before the events of the episode, he is already suspected of dumping chemicals that gave people cancer, a fact he seems to be gleefully proud of. He then convinces the man trying to stop him to commit suicide, tries to get Lex to kill Clark and get Whitney to kill his old business partner who wants to stop him. He gets a karmic comeuppance when his former partner (Who also has the ability) overpowers him and gets him to turn his gun on himself.

Rickman's a better example then many other meteor freaks, but I don't know if he meets the heinous standard. I can see him qualifying, but I don't know. It's worth noting that most meteor freaks suffer from a condition that the show refers to as "kryptonite psychosis" a mental disorder brought on by exposure to the radiation, which is accompanied by irrationality and a desire to abuse your powers. Very few are able to resist it. For a meteor freak, Rickman does seem relatively rational, and his former partner proves it's possible to resist (meaning Rickman may simply be evil) but it is worth considering both for him and all the other meteor freaks mentioned here. On the fence.

  • Linda Lake. She has absolutely no qualms about selling out, betraying or outright lying about anyone if it helps her, she is a sadist who enjoys destroying people's lives and she is perfectly willing to kill anyone to succeed. She is completely self-obsessed and possesses no redeeming qualities at all.

Linda Lake is a sleazy reporter who resorts to murder when she's going to be exposed as a meteor. She's not even close to as bad as this write-up tries to indicate, and in her case, kryptonite psychosis is definitely a factor. Cut.

  • The worst of all has to be Zor-El who cloned Lara-El because he was jealous that she had married his brother Jor-El instead of him and tricked Clark into using the crystal to bring his mothers clone to life, tricked her into giving Clark a ring which Zor-El had spiked with blue Kryptonite, thus robbing Clark of his powers, attempted a genocide of the entire human race with a permanent eclipse so that he could rebuild Krypton on Earth and threatened to kill Clark in order to blackmail Lara into having sex with him, meaning that he essentially attempted statutory rape. One CM trait he subverts is an inability for love as in his own warped way, he did love Kara and Lara but he treats them no better than anyone else. When Kara defies him, he tries to kill her.

Zor-El is honestly a very underwhelming villain. Most of this is in the backstory and is not shown, he appears for only a single episode (and a very awkwardly written one at that, which makes it hard to tell just what vibe we're supposed to be getting from him), and later revelations show that he was just a stooge of Brainiac and General Zod. In the one episode he does appear in he does little beyond hit on a clone of Lara, try to recruit Kara and Clark, and generally be a tool. It should also be noted that the Zor-El in question is a clone and cannot be held responsible for the crimes of the original. Cut.

  • And, of course, We can't forget Darkseid.

Yes we can. Darkseid appears for a grand total of five minutes and doesn't do anything beyond fail to fight Clark, and promote "corruption" (read as BDSM). He only kills Earth-2!Lionel with his permission, doesn't kill (or try to kill) anyone else, and spends the rest of his time offscreen. He even keeps his promise to Earth-2!Lionel by resurrecting Lex. I could see his Serial Killer right-hand man, Desaad, who tortures people into serving them, kills anyone they can't corrupt (by causing the rupture of their internal organs, one at a time), and puts Chloe through an extensive Mind Rape deserving a slot, but not Darkseid himself. Cut.

Personally I think that, even in ten seasons, the only Smallville antagonists who reach this trope are Brainiac, Lx-3, and maybe Desaad. I could also, as mentioned above, tolerate the presence of Sean Kelvin and Bob Rickman on the list. Anyone else is a no-go. Heck, Lex Luthor, who spent most of the show as a Well-Intentioned Extremist (until Season 7 when he crossed the Moral Event Horizon) does more heinous things then most of the characters listed here. So does his father, Lionel Luthor, (The Heavy of Seasons 1-3) and Season 9 Big Bad Major Zod.

edited 5th Dec '12 7:56:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5421: Dec 5th 2012 at 10:05:51 PM

Here's a change for Iain M Banks' The Algebraist's villain Archimandrite Luseferous

  • The Archimandrite Luseferous, a deplorable sadist with a 'fertile imagination,' as the book calls him. Luseferous is a brutal dictator, who rules by fear and intimidation. He's fond of torture. Really fond of it. One of his past times is thinking up new ways to psychologically and physically harm those in his non-existent mercies. He's set apart from other Culture villains by his willingness to commit base genocide, as he's obliterated cities full of people on little else but a whim.

mlsmithca (Edited uphill both ways)
#5422: Dec 5th 2012 at 10:15:00 PM

I still haven't had a chance to sit down and re-watch the last two episodes of The Caesars since my last post to this thread, but if there are no objections by tomorrow evening I'll axe the example from YMMV.The Cleopatras - again, the Ptolemaics are presented as bastards to a man (and woman), so no-one really stands out as a monster (besides, most of the worst atrocities, such as Ptolemy Euergetes AKA Pot Belly burning down a school in Alexandria without letting the people inside get out first, happen off screen) - just various flavours of Magnificent and/or Manipulative Bastards/Bitches.

Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#5423: Dec 6th 2012 at 6:25:36 AM

What about the Narrator from the machinima series Little Bigze? For most of the series he isn't so bad, but sweet Farore almighty, that finale. Only time that something on Machinima.com scared me.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5424: Dec 6th 2012 at 6:36:55 AM

^That is at best Nightmare Fuel. Not yet Complete Monster.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#5425: Dec 6th 2012 at 6:52:21 AM

True, I haven't seen it in a good long while.

Still, for the whole series he's been holding the protagonist's wife and child hostage. Then in the finale, he says "screw it" and kills them all. He cuts Bigze a break and sends him to Heaven, but his wife and kid are staying with the Narrator.... in Hell. I think the implication is that he's Satan.


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