During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Moloch (I have no idea how he "set himself up in the past", but whatever).
Incidentally, in which of these
stories are Slough Feh, Elfric, and Moloch?
I am doing what I plan to be my final fanfic nominations, if not forever, then for a good while. I am doing this one because it's one of those fics on the monster fanworks page with little context, so I decided to see if the characters really counted, and if so, try a rewrite. After this, I do not plan to do any effortposts on fanfiction villains, at least for a long time. The fanfic is The Ghost Map. Thankfully, it is not one of those Dark Fics with pointless gore. It is a Sherlock Holmes fanfic, and it actually feels like one. The candidates are the Serial Killer, and Moran:
Who is the killer, and what do they do?
The killer, Dr Jacob Land. is a Deadly Doctor and Professional Killer, hired by Moran to spread cholera around London and cause deaths to catch Holmes attention. He even kills Wiggins, which makes it personal for Holmes. Eventually he is caught. Holmes speaks with him, and finds out that he had been hired, though the killer refuses to tell him who hired him. Holmes shoots himself in the shoulder to get people to think the killer did it and draw out the boss, knowing he will want to finish him off while he's injured. We don't know what happens to the killer afterward, but he is most likely executed.
Any redeeming qualities?
No. He killed many people just for money.
Heniousness?
At the end of the story, it is stated that the cholera outbreak killed nearly 150 people.
What does Moran do?
He hires the killer to do the above. After the killer is arrested and Holmes shoots himself in the shoulder, Moran goes to Holmes and gives him the Sadistic Choice of either committing suicide, or allowing Moran to kill Mary. When Holmes is prepared to saccrafice himself for Mary, Moran stabs him with a syringe and leaves him to die. Fortunately, Holmes friends arrive in time to save him. Moran escapes, and the fic ends with a Sequel Hook.
Any redeeming features?
He does not target Mary after stabbing Holmes with the syringe, but that could be because he's waiting for the right time, especially since Holmes survived.
Heniousness?
He hired the killer to cause close to 10 deaths just to get Holmes attention, and he stabbed Holmes with a syringe and left him to die.
Is this a Dark Fic?
No, it has a few heartwarming moments
, and there's no graphic torture. Sherlock Holmes actually is a work that could have a CM. The characters are in character, and it's a bit better written then some other fics we have dealt with.
edited 5th Mar '16 10:33:44 AM by bobg
jjjSo I was thinking Daos, the Big Bad of the Lufia series could count. The Lufia series is a series of J-RP Gs, which are now owned by Square Enix.
Who is He
Daos is the God of Terror, the cruel leader of the Sinistrals, who are four evil siblings gods, and the lone deities in the Lufia series along with Arek the Absolute. Daos, and the Sinistrals descend from the land of the gods to torment humans in a contest they created between men and gods.
Heinousness
Daos is the Big Bad of all Lufia games, barring the GBA installment, and has quite a track record. Being by far the most heinous thing in the series. I made a list to keep track of the things he does throughout the trilogy.
- Its revealed he has his priests sacrifice young maidens in Lufia 2.
- Uses his Floating Island to blow up the town of Chaed, killing everyone(including a little girl) explicitly to spite the heroes in Lufia 2. He even warps the heroes there, and spares them so they feel the fear of the townsfolk as they died.
- Orders the kidnapping and attempted execution of the Hero’s baby son, Jeros, in an attempt to end the lineage of his archenemy. He is foiled, but the intent is there.
- Attempts to destroy the human world out of spite for Maxim and the majority of humanity’s resistance to them. What this means for the Sinistrals human and monster followers/worshippers is unspecified.
- When that fails, Daos decides to drop his Fortress onto onto a small town with the heroes son in it out of hatred.
- In the Third game, purely for his amusement, Daos crashes a wedding by casting a spell so the bride sees the groom and all the other attendants at the wedding as monsters. To make matters worse, Daos gives her a sword, makes her as inhumanly strong as himself, explaining the spell will only break until she or a victim is dead. When the Groom kills himself to stop the bride from killing her little sister, breaking the spell, Daos mocks the humans grief over it. Video Link
.
- When Erim arranges for the death of herself, and the other Sinistrals, a mortally wounded Daos Summons Zalbak, a Mindless Animalistic Abomination with the last of his power. Having the Monster fuse with the wounded Erim, Daos reveals Zalbak won’t stop until the world is covered in flames, while Erim will be Forced to Watch the World she loved be turned to ashes before she dies. Video Link.
Freudian Excuse:
Mentions a few times, humans have lost their faith and fear of the gods due to being accustomed to peace and need to know their place. Aside from that, it seems to be mostly Fantastic Racism as Daos is always going on about how humans are inferior. He also believes its the duty of the Sinistrals to bring misery to mankind, and has stated it brings him joy to cause misery to others.
Any redeeming qualities:
Das insists that his siblings, the other Sinistrals remain loyal to him, but this seems to be out of personal benefit. His two brothers, Gades, and Amon help him in all schemes, and can fuse with Daos to create a creature called Guard Daos with all their powers, and Daos’s mind. As for Erim, as long she lives, Daos, and the other sinistrals will resurrect endlessly regardless of Erim’s intentions. Thus he has a large motive to stay in the good sides of the other Sinistrals.
In the third game, a Legend Returns, Daos outright states he’d never view Gades and Amon as friends, as gods have no needs of foolishness like “love and friendship.”
Moral Agency
I’d make an argument that Daos has moral agency. Not only are none of the other gods as cruel as he, but the some of the others show signs of decency, most notably his sister, Erim. Its also hinted that all the Sinistrals could embrace the positive aspect of their godhood, as Erim is implied to embody life as well as death.
Gades spares a town at one point due to being impressed by a human’s resistance, thus implying Erim isn't the only Sinistral who can at least be less evil.
Eric develops a conscience over the series, and countless times goes against her title of the Sinistral of Death by saving lives.
These factors could indicate that Daos could very well choose to not be evil.
edited 5th Mar '16 5:56:28 PM by Monsund
Write-up for Kimball:
- Timeline-191: Commander Roger Kimball is initially nothing more than a sleazy, misogynistic Confederate submarine captain who views women as conquests and non-whites as subhumans. Following the Confederacy's defeat in the Great War, however, an enraged Kimball vents his spite by ordering his submarine, the CSS Bonefish to fire on the USS Ericson, killing everyone on board, and making himself into the worst war criminal of the conflict, a title that he revels in. Unemployed after the war, Kimball becomes a Freedom Party thug, assaulting members of the opposing Radical Liberal Party, scheming to have his former Executive Officer, Tom Brearly, assassinated, and finally trying to rape his ex-girlfriend, Anne Colleton, when she leaves him. At the time of his death he is plotting to avenge himself on Anne by tracking her down and strangling her, cementing himself as the irredeemable bottom-feeder he always claimed not to be.
How's that look?
edited 5th Mar '16 1:08:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Daos and Land. Leaning toward
on Moran too. Seems like we've been busy today with all these proposals.
Anyone else have any opinions on Captain Lyle
? The total's 7 (or 8)
and 0
so far, so I might start on the writeup soon.
Also does anyone else have any thoughts/issues on proposing villains from your own stories?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.![]()
I've literally zero issue with creators proposing villains from their own works so long as A. they don't force it (which you certainly aren't) and B. it's not taken advantage of.
I guess I'll
Land, but I'll say I'm a little skeptical on Moran, simply because Land just seems to be a lot more hands-on than him.
bobg, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd also appreciate if you would skim over the Moran listed from A Study in Regret. The writeup's alright, the work page seems to tell me that the fan work is of decent quality, and from what's said, Moran seems to count, but what troubles me is that he's explicitly doing this to avenge Moriarty's death. Whether or not that's played as redeeming I don't know; clarification on this matter would help.
edited 5th Mar '16 5:51:21 PM by Scraggle
to Daos., Land, Mara, Moloch and Moran .
I have to admit I made an error with Crime Master's effort post, instead of selling weapons to genocidal terrorists, he hired a scientist to weaponize some vibranium he gave him and then the scientist used it to try to commit genocide in his home country. That makes him a little less heinious but not much, why? Because he sent Jack to get this scientist and Jack makes the war zone even worse, killing fleeing refugees and murdering UN peace keepers. We see Jack kill more people then any one terrorist in this issue and Crime Master did create Jack, I don't that kid would have become a murderer, if Crime Master didn't kidnap and corrupt him, Crime Master was the one who taught him how to kill. Jack and Crime Master has have no problem with the scientist genocidal plans, they are unjust unhappy the scientist didn't pay them or give back his merchandise. Crime Master still intends to use this carnage to advertise his wares and has Jack film it for that purpose and to see his weapons in action. Crime Master seems intent on recreating events like this all over the developing world with his arms business, saying that causing chaos is good for business. Every time Crime Master sends Jack on a mission, he knows Jack will kill more people, he doesn't care. He sends Jack to accompany Flash when he forces him to work with him and Jack kills some random people on the way to their destination.
The scientist doesn't count because he is a nothing character who barely appears. Crime Master also gives Jack all of his tech, so he wouldn't be nearly as successful a killer without Crime Master.
I would have proposed Jack, if he wasn't so loyal to Crime Master. Jack is pretty repulsive, having a habit of turning people into Jack O Lanterns, by killing them, removing their brains and placing a candle in their mouths. If Jack wasn't so loyal to Crime Master, he would count.
I still think Crime Master counts despite my error, which I apologize for.
If Brant Crime Master goes up, this would be second Crime Master character to count, the first being the Noir version of Crime Master. I wonder if we should reorganize the Spider-Man page in sub headings: the main 616 villains first, then villains from spin off series like Agent Venom and then characters from other continuities
Speaking of fan fic examples. are there any villains that are too silly in a work to count as C Ms in fan fiction (assuming the original work is dark enough to have C Ms). Could you have a Daredevil fan fiction where Stilt-Man is a CM?
edited 5th Mar '16 6:39:21 PM by Overlord
- I added this image of Lolth here
.
- On the subject of fanfictions (as a fanfic writer myself), I have a question: what happens if the story isn't a darkfic, but the plot doesn't fit with the tone of the source material. Like, a murder mystery in a Tangled fanfic?
edited 5th Mar '16 6:38:44 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?

Moloch & Mara.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.