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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#5376: Dec 4th 2012 at 11:28:40 PM

[up] Throwing my vote with you, we need unambiguous proof of CM-dom, if the Pet the Dog moments come under scrutiny, they must be proved as false, not allowed the dots to be connected (despite such patterns of behavior being evident).

I am reminded of V2 from Code Geass: He claimed to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and built a philosophy to never lie to his brother and create a world without lies. However, he continues to break that vow, and lie and kill for reasons that don't help him achieve his goal (in additions to killings that do help). There is doubt to whether his actions were done out of a good will to the world, but not confirmation as to his true motive, so we cut him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5377: Dec 4th 2012 at 11:28:45 PM

@ Jordan

Most villains in the Ace Attorney series tend to have some moment to show they cared about so and so, even after their unmasking, if they did. Kristoph, to my recollection, gets none of that after unmasking. He's vindictive, spiteful and hateful with not a trace of affection to Apollo.

We already know for a fact he's a good actor who lied about a ton of things. This calls firmly into question that he ever cared for Apollo at all. I see no reason to assume he was being genuine any more than Palpatine's "anakin, you're my best buddy and I totally want to help you save your wife."

Furthermore, we know Kristoph was using Apollo, given how Apollo got his start defending Phoenix, under Kristoph's tutelage, which Kristoph was manipulating. He treats Apollo civilly, sure, but there's never any indication he cares for Apollo or treats him as a Morality Pet

edited 4th Dec '12 11:37:37 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5378: Dec 4th 2012 at 11:41:44 PM

Just cut this from the YMMV page for Gundam SEED.

  • Al Da Flaga. Though we don't see much of him, he disowned his son just because he had his mother's DNA, and raised his clone Rau Le Creuset into the Omnicidal Maniac that he became. Rau also hated him so much that he ended up killing him by burning his house down. It's safe to say that he's about the worst person in the world.

Seriously? Al's a Jerkass Posthumous Character who only appears in flashback, and doesn't do anything beyond be a dick to his kids. It doesn't stack with the actions of Patrick Zala, or Rau Le Creuset, and certainly doesn't stack with the series' actual CM candidate (and the real worst person in the world), Muruta Azrael, a man who attempted genocide out of jealousy and uses the very people he claims to be protecting as expendable pawns.

edited 5th Dec '12 12:03:32 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5379: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:06:38 AM

With the Ace Attorney example, I would argue that his Pet the Dog moment was more likely than not was a ruse, since I'm reminded of another villian whose on the Complete Monster page who spend years training someone, treating them better that his own daughter, and complimenting him on his form, all to get him executed for murder, purely because the boy's father got him penalised and ruined his perfect record.

I haven't played Apollo Justice yet, but is he the one who gets him to represent Pheonix Wright? If so then his Pet the Dog moment is definitely fake.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5380: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:09:40 AM

Ayep, Kristoph was mentoring Apollo and having him defend Phoenix for that trial.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5381: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:13:09 AM

[up][up]If that's accurate, I'd vote to cut as well.

EDIT: A long time ago we agreed to cut Brett and his father from Eden Lake on the basis that Brett seems shocked by his father's actions and the father gets no screentime. We never actually cut them. The request has now been put in.

edited 5th Dec '12 12:18:36 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5382: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:20:52 AM

You mean keep or cut, Ambar? Just checking as you were citing the post that had said Pet the Dog as a fake.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5383: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:35:14 AM

Voting to cut the Last King of Scotland example, as The Dragon character is still sharing a movie with Idi Amin, and... I've seen the movie multiple times and don't know which character the OP is talking about.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5384: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:39:30 AM

Largo, you mean keep Idi Amin and cut his Dragon?

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#5385: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:41:22 AM

@ Largo: What is the OP? Original Poster?

I'm pretty sure he's (The Dragon that is) the guy who makes a random young soldier eat the poisoned pills that Nick Gave Amin, to see if they were real.

edited 5th Dec '12 12:41:37 AM by DrPsyche

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5386: Dec 5th 2012 at 1:17:45 AM

@ Ambar, I'm not sure what you're supporting cutting; Von Karma's so-called Pet the Dog moments were all fake, since he was doing it all to mold Edgeworth into the exact opposite of his father, all so he could frame Edgeworth for one murder, then get him executed for killing his own father (which Von Karma did).

From Snake's word, Gavin's Pet the Dog moments are equally fake. He was using that as apart of the long con to deal with Pheonix Wright once and for all.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#5387: Dec 5th 2012 at 5:13:46 AM

OK, I mentioned Carozzo Ronah, so let's talk Carozzo Ronah.

Who is he?

Carozzo 'Iron Mask' Ronah is the Big Bad of Mobile Suit Gundam F91. He's the military commander of the Crossbone Vanguard, an organisation of exiled nobles from Jupiter. Under the leadership of his father, Metzer Ronah, the Vanguard wished to conquer the Earth Sphere (see this post), replacing the corrupt, decadent Federation with a new empire, 'Cosmo Babylonia', which would rule through the principles of aristocracy and noblesse oblige (benevolent paternalism, in short, with the Ronah family and other highborns as the kindly father-figures at the top of the heap). As his nickname suggests, Carozzo always wears an intimidating, elaborate mask - not to conceal his identity, because everyone knows who he is, but to depersonalise himself, letting him act with some measure of emotional detachment and turning him into more of a symbol than a man.

What sort of evil deeds does he commit? How heinous are they by the standards of the story?

For most of the movie, Carozzo is a seething mass of barely-contained murderous rage. Sometimes, though, it leaks out. Here's the list:

  • During a conversation with his ex-wife, he casually mentions that if it were not for the emotional discipline afforded by his mask, he would have beaten her to death for leaving him, and then either kills or orders the death of her new husband (the scene is shot really oddly, but the point is that the guy dies and it's his fault).
  • Tries to murder his daughter (Berah Ronah/Cecily Fairchild, girlfriend of the movie's protagonist, Seabook Arno). To be fair, she's trying to kill him too at the time, but he seems way too happy about her giving him the excuse.
  • Invents, creates, and deploys the Bugs. This is his major claim to fame. Bugs are unmanned, self-replicating Attack Drones programmed to kill people but leave the infrastructure intact, allowing the Crossbone Vanguard an easy conquest without getting any blood on their oh-so-aristocratic hands. After testing them on the colony of Frontier I, massacring most of its population before our heroes shut them down (FYI, a colony has a population of between three and ten million, putting it in the region of modern megacities like New York and Chicago), he plans to deploy them across the Earth Sphere, wiping out nine-tenths of the human race.

By the standards of the Universal Century, this is indeed pretty heinous - it would kill more people than Char Aznable's Axis drop, Gihren Zabi's colony gassings, or Fonse Kagatie's Angel Halo, and perhaps more than all of them combined. Notably, Metzer and his agent, Zabine Chareux (yes, that is his real name) were unaware of the Bug program, and are horrified when they find out about it. In fact, Zabine implies that Seabook and Cecily saved them a lot of trouble by killing the guy, and orders that their ship be allowed to leave safely despite the Vanguard winning the overall space battle. There may be more to this last bit, though, as we'll discuss later.

Does he ever behave altruistically, or show care and concern for another human being?

Carozzo isn't really a people person. The closest he comes to personal affection is respect for and loyalty to his father - that's about it.

As for his deeds, he honestly believes that the Bug genocide is necessary for the Earth and humanity's survival, which is actually slightly less crazy than it sounds. The Universal Century, especially in its later parts, emphasises that pollution and overcrowding have seriously fucked the Earth over. In Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ, thirty-five years earlier, the Federation has begun terraforming their own planet, growing rainforests in Europe just to keep the failing atmosphere going. Thirty years later, in Mobile Suit Victory Gundam, one battle is fought on a shoreline covered in the bones of dead sea-creatures. In Carozzo's opinion, it's only a matter of time before the colonies start going the same way, and only a small, controllable population would give the Earth Sphere a chance to get back on its feet. As such, he may qualify for Well-Intentioned Extremist status, but he's such an extremist that it's a tough sell. There is also some evidence that he may be aware of just how horrifying his actions are, which we'll come back to in the next part, and little, if any, evidence that he's motivated by personal ambition (he's a member of the Crossbone Vangurd, and that's about as far as it goes).

Does he have a Freudian Excuse, or any other factor that might mitigate his evil?

Late in the movie, the real reason Carozzo wears a mask is revealed - he's a Cyber-Newtype (see this post), and one of the most monstrously augmented ones in the setting. As a note of comparison, your standard Cyber-Newtype looks just like anyone else - it's just that they're highly-skilled pilots, totally insane, and have to stay on a regular dose of medication to remain functional. Carozzo, meanwhile, has Super-Strength, can survive in hard vacuum without any ill-effects, and can control his personal mobile armour (translator's note: like a mobile suit, but bigger and non-humanoid), the Rafflesia, with his brain. Not only that, but there are hints that he physically can't take off his mask, because there's some major Body Horror under there - he's literally wired into the Rafflesia when he pilots it, for a start. Some of these traits were present in earlier Cyber-Newtypes, like Glemmy Toto's Ple series, but never to the same extreme, and since ordinary Cybers are crazy enough as it is... well, you can see that we've got some serious problems with moral agency here. As evidence that he is, in fact, insane, he's trying to wipe out most of humanity to save it. That enough?

Interesting, also, is why he became a Cyber-Newtype. During his Motive Rant, he claims that his job was to do Metzer's dirty work - according to him, his dad was the one who first claimed it was necessary to reduce the human population by nine-tenths, and he's rather annoyed that now he, Carozzo, has come up with a viable method, Metzer is getting all squeamish about it. Becoming a Cyber-Newtype was a coping mechanism for him, letting him abandon his humanity so that he could do what his father required but couldn't accomplish above-board. It's hard to say how much of this is true, of course (not least because of the disjointed, mashed-together nature of the film), but Carozzo has little reason to lie at the time, and it's plausible that whilst Metzer didn't know about the Bugs, he also made it his business not to know, and Carozzo's crime wasn't killing all those people, but doing it in such an obvious, traceable way. Whatever the case, the fact that our boy needed a coping mechanism like that to do what he did speaks volumes.

In conclusion, the acts that Carozzo commits and plans to commit are amongst the worst in the setting, but his insanity, possible altruistic (if tremendously warped) motives, and the possibility that he felt regret for his actions make him hard to include in our list. He's a 99.9% monster, and we need 'em complete.

edited 5th Dec '12 5:20:46 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Ntroper Since: Jan, 2011
#5388: Dec 5th 2012 at 6:05:49 AM

Caesar Clown

Who is he? Caesar Clown is the Big Bad of the One Piece arc "Punk Hazard". A scientist who worked with Vegapunk and is wanted by the government for his experiments on Mass-Destruction weapons. A psychopathic Mad Scientist who conducts horrific experiments with chemical weapons on living subjects; when asked about a past failure of his that caused massive casualties, he callously denies that it was a failure, instead insisting that it was a testament to his weapons-creating prowess. He also kidnapped many children and he gleefully admits to getting said children hooked on a highly addictive stimulant just so they won't try to escape. Said stimulant was being fed to the children in form of candy, and he deceived them by saying it was medicine for them. Thanks to that, said children only have 5 years to live, and he says that with complete glee at the idea. And the many Mooks he has working for him worship him, viewing him as a hero and savior due to their manipulation and acting, thinking he cares deeply for them, while in truth Caesar views them all as expendable. By the standards of the story, his deeds are considered so heinous that Trafalgar Law, who sent the hearts of 100 pirates to the government so he could take a position as a Shichibukai, quit working for him on the spot when hit with the revelation of Caesar's deeds. He had all of his deeds planned right from the off when he was working under Vegapunk. When he was told that he was kicked off the staff for his actions, his response was to blow up the island. He seems to care about his subordinates, but that's only a mask. He pretends to care about his subordinates, while gleefully sending them on sacrificial missions (e.g: Sent some of his men to leave a bag full of Devil Fruits on the trail of his Slimey monster, but their sled was sabotaged by him so they'd fall victim to the Slimey as well. They were not aware they were being sacrificed at all.) for the sake of his experiments. The one ounce of care he shows towards anyone, is towards said monster, who is a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

In conclusion, the acts that Caesar Clown commits and plans to commit are amongst the worst in the setting, and he shows no traits of insanity whatsoever. He is perfectly aware of how horrible his deeds are. He has all defining traits of a Complete Monster.

edited 5th Dec '12 6:09:26 AM by Ntroper

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#5389: Dec 5th 2012 at 6:12:25 AM

Seems legit.

Hodor
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#5390: Dec 5th 2012 at 8:53:51 AM

In regards to Last King of Scotland questions - OP does mean Original Poster. Also, yes, I am saying that cut his Dragon, especially if he's the pill guy, because, if I recall, that's really the only thing that guy does. Idi Amin stays in my vote.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5391: Dec 5th 2012 at 10:11:25 AM

@Shoken

Meant to write keep rather then cut. This is why I shouldn't edit late at night.

@Iaculus

Sounds like a cut. Cyber-Newtypes are all pretty lacking in the moral agency department. In another series I might be tempted to say he counts anyway, but Gihren was planning to do something similar (reduce the population to less then a billion) without the regrets, altruistic motivations, or obvious madness. So was Fonse Kagatie for that matter. Cut though just barely.

edited 5th Dec '12 10:13:10 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5392: Dec 5th 2012 at 10:46:40 AM

I'm throwing my vote in behind Caesar Clown now. The arc is near over and no way in hell is this guy getting any redeeming factors. Every chapter just makes him more evil, especially when he reveals that everyone is just a test subject and he'll gladly sacrifice them.

As for Carozzo I'm conflicted. While he is insane and a Cyber Newtype, this was pretty much self inflicted by him, and throughout he demonstrates the qualifiers for insanity for me as a mitigation: He knows what he's doing and the consequences thereof. He recognizes what life is. It's not like Rosamia where his mind was messed with to the point he thinks the sky's collapsing. It's a willing dive into evil and madness.

As far as his genocide program goes...while he probably does believe in the cause, the fact that the cause is so ridiculously evil and genocidal doesn't provide much a mitigating feature for me. Amon Goeth and Muruta Azrael truly believe in their causes of genocide against their chosen enemies. The true belief in a cause is significant, but the cause is such an inherently vile and evil one that blind devotion to it enhances his monstrosity, not mitigates it.

I think Carozzo is a slightly more layered monster, but a CM nonetheless.

edited 5th Dec '12 10:58:36 AM by Lightysnake

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#5393: Dec 5th 2012 at 11:29:43 AM

@5363 "It feels different" is too shaky of a justification to me, especially when the author intended it to be a cohesive work. It also doesn't feel that different to me - and keep in mind that I do distinctly prefer one half of Dragon Ball to the other.

So, with that said, my review of the Monster.Dragon Ball page.

Tao Pai Pai - Keep, because the only difference between him and Frieza is power, not aims. Delete the line about Dragon Ball Online, since that should be handled separately.

Frieza - Keep, but consolidate the first subbullet into the entry, and remove the note about Dragon Ball Abridged, as that would be under Monster.Web Original (yes, I'll get to that shortly).

Chilled - I seem to recall him being a minor note (as opposed to Frieza, who was not only the Big Bad of the arc, but named it). I would lean towards cutting.

Dr. Gero - Keep, although I'd expand on just what effects his actions have.

Androids 17 and 18 - Cut for lack of moral agency, though their deeds can be pinned on Dr. Gero, who made them that way (and can be cited for his entry).

Cell - I've seen conflicting accounts on this - is Cell programmed to be evil by Gero, or is he predisposed to evil due to having genetic influence from Vegeta and Frieza? If the former, I'm inclined to cut for lack of moral agency. If the latter, I'm fine with inclusion.

Babidi - Keep, but cut the last two lines for being unnecessary Natter.

Bibidi - As I recall, much of that is Offscreen Villainy. I'm inclined to cut, since I think Babidi was the one in-story who committed more atrocities.

Super Buu - For one, I don't like how the entry describes two entities that don't count. Beyond that, since he's literally Made of Evil and was a splinter broken off of something else, I would say he doesn't count in the same way that the splitered AI characters from Red Vs Blue don't count. So, cut.

@5361 Ah, okay, good with the cut, but I still think, in fairness, that even the obvious cuts should run through here first.

@5367 Whoa... thanks for flagging this, because I have some questions about what's going on with this.

First, though, your question - being a mentor professionally is a neutral act, I think. You need more than "doesn't treat badly" to count for Pet the Dog. So I don't think Gavin's treatment of Apollo comes into play for this trope in either direction.

Now, that said... because I was lax in my attempt to clean up the page (back in @3404), not only was no action done on the examples (my opinion holds true on all of those examples), but they were removed from their own subpage by lu127 on November 28th and put on Monster.Visual Novels. Problematic because we did have votes to take the actions I had recommended (including the rewrites), but now we have to deal with a more onerous process. I know moderators can do that, but I really wish lu had discussed it here so that I could have picked up the slack and done the rewrites I had promised.

I do apologize for all of that; I think I sometimes try to take on too much in this cleanup effort.

@5372 I would cut him, yes.

@5387 Close, but it sounds like he genuinely cares about his father. Cut.

@5388 I might have to add this to my signature as well - if the arc isn't over, wait for it to be finished before the nomination. Not "nearly over," completely over. This also gives folks like me, who wait for the trades, time to get to it themselves. This isn't a race and we don't need to add every single character RealSoonNow.

Or, in short - I am not going to vote on Caesar Clown right now. Wait until the arc is over.

Okay, with that said, based on the votes so far, my proposed rewrite of Monster.Web Original:

  • Kirby's version in There Will Be Brawl. He is nowhere close to the cute little marshmallow you grew up with. He is an outright cannibalisitic serial killer who takes delight in tormenting and torturing his victims. He is responsible for almost everything that goes wrong in the Mushroom Kingdom, and that's saying a lot! He killed many of the main characters, most of them being the few innocents left in this world, very gruesomely. He takes great pleasure in ruining Luigi's life, and killed the two women he loved the most. In the end, he succeeds in all his schemes, and never gets stopped. His mobile? Sheer insanity. He also likes to torment his victims with their past.
  • In Survival of the Fittest, Danya falls into this category with the whole "kidnapping high school students and forcing them to do horrible things to each other because he hates the US for some reason" thing. And if that weren't enough, he makes snide and sadistic remarks about the students involved, with one snippet of his dialogue making fun of how Adam was raped and left for dead by Angelina Kaige.
  • In Book III of Tasakeru, an exiled wolf named Ares is introduced as being one of these: a completely unrepentant rapist. The title of Book III is Soulsnatcher, to give you an idea of how much worse he gets. He quickly adds mass-murder and screwing with the process of life and death to his repertoire.
  • Imperium Nova doesn't have many of these, but Patrice Rey Barte of Gemini managed to earn the title by orchestrating an orbital bombardment of the planet Dnoces 13 that can killed over a billion people because he was bored.
  • The Whateley Universe:
    • Deathlist, a psychopathic, Nigh-Invulnerable cyborg who gets off on widespread carnage and considers the world to owe him a debt of pain. The most horrific thing he's done so far was to kidnap a mutant superheroine, jam a power-neutralizing device into her skull, then hack off her arms and legs and give her to his troops as a sex toy. Then, when she died after more than a month of torture and rape, he impaled her corpse on a pole with a message to one of her former team-mates carved into her chest. Not even his Freudian Excuse (namely, that his parents tried to kill him by crushing him in a garbage compactor) nets him any sympathy after that. The really horrifying part: that message to a former teammate? It was a thank you note, for allowing him to do that. Moral Event Horizon for said "hero" right there.
    • Hekate, a wizardess supervillain-in-training, whose rap sheet includes using a spell to enslave two of her classmates for a year, during which they were repeatedly raped and otherwise abused while being completely aware of what was happening but powerless to stop it, as well as the fact that the athamé she used in the spell was empowered by the ritual sacrifice of two young children. Not only that, but during a magical battle with Fey (after trying and failing to ensnare her in the same enslavement spell mentioned earlier), she summons a trio of iron elementals using the promise of dozens of future sacrifices. To top all that off, she used her athamé to stab Jade in the heart beforehand, just to torment Fey.
  • Sola Soulhawk from The Insane Quest: single, red-haired young woman seeking man (or woman) for companionship. Enjoys long walks on the beach, salsa, genocide, destroying worlds, murdering your closest friends, laughing at how pitifully weak you are, and Cold-Blooded Torture. Call now!
  • Atop the Fourth Wall suprisingly has Mechakara, a robot from an alternate dimension where Linkara's Robot Buddy Pollo turned evil and killed him and robots overthrew humanity. His plans solely revolve around sending our protagonist into a mental breakdown, and when that fails, he captures him and plans to kill him slowly, simply because his death went too fast the first time around. While that would normally make him just another killer robot, what shoots him over the top is how, after getting the magic MacGuffin that he came for, he decides instead to destroy all organic life in the multiverse. He's a cold heartless monster and the fact that he's returned is a signal he'll only get worse from here. It gets particularly bad in the Silent Hill Dead/Alive videos, where Mechakara slowly Mind Rapes Linkara into thinking he's the (actually long dead) man who tortured his daughter to create Linkara's Magic Gun.
  • Malachite from Suburban Knights wanted to destroy all of the world's current technology and killed anyone who disagrees with him and/or gets in his way. He cannot even pass off as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, as towards the end of the series, he picked up his cell phone, and it had been demonstrated that he didn't think that science is bad, but that he only hated it because he was defeated by its champion, so he swore a violent revenge as a result.
  • Mecha Sonic in Super Mario Bros Z. As soon as he came into being (via Metal Sonic absorbing past models into himself), he destroys the Death Egg and forces it to crash-land on Mobius, causing an apocalypse. He then, while hunting down the Chaos Emeralds, also took the opportunity to kill Sonic's friends in extremely brutal ways (Tails by strangling him, Amy by beating her up, Knuckles by beating him up and then filling him up with machine-gun processed lead, and Cream and Cheese by apparently blowing her head off), and had wiped out most, if not all, of the planet's population and turned almost half of it into a burning wasteland. He was also the reason for Shadow's current personality, because he murdered Rouge and Omega, the only people he could call his friends. As soon as he arrived at the Mushroom Kingdom to recover the Chaos Emeralds, he also killed a Goomba who found a Chaos Emerald simply because he didn't give it to him, even though there was absolutely no way he could have known that was a Chaos Emerald. He then mercilessly beats up Yoshi to gain his chaos emerald (and says that he would have killed Yoshi anyways even if he did comply to his request). He later brutally killed both the Koopa Bros and the Axem Rangers X and destroyed Yoshi's Island. Not just scouring the surface, but hitting the island with a Frieza-style Sphere of Destruction so violent that it vaporised the entire island.
  • In the fan movie The Legend of Zelda: The Sage of Darkness, we have Davik, Link's uncle and also the titular villain. He seems to train Link in the ways of the Hero, only he's really attempting to feed Link hatred and anger in order to speed up Ganon's revival, even supplying him with the White Sword, one of Ganon's artifacts. He's also manipulating Ertegun for his own agenda, and it is also hinted that he also plans on betraying Ganon as part of his agenda as well. He also brutally murdered Link's parents as well as poisoned his own sister. The reason? None whatsoever, aside from possibly trying to get Link to go down the road of hatred even more. And his real plan is to extinguish the Cycle of Eternity, which may result in the destruction of the entire world, for no reason besides hating it for unspecified reasons. He's also a psychopath.
  • Venomstripe from Warrior Cats RPG is one of these, a sadistic cannibal who kills high positions for the hell of it and is quite possibly the poster child for Even Evil Has Standards - BloodClan, one of the most evil groups in the game, and SunClan, a vicious anti-Clan group, are the major cats after her.
  • Red Dawn Plus 20 has many terrible villains, with the biggest and baddest of them all being the GRU's General Sergei Khvostov, aka "The Butcher of Clear Lake City." His offenses include: arriving at Johnson Space Center in Houston and finding that NASA had managed to move everything (personnel, equipment, documentation) out of there before the invaders arrived, leaving only a mocking note "Catch us if you can," he responsed by ordering the massacre of the families of NASA contractors, astronauts, and anyone else left behind in Clear Lake City; bathing a Cuban officer (one of his nation's allies) in battery acid when they got into an argument over a mistress; massacring the town of Freer, Texas in response to an assassination attempt (that's implied to have actually been carried out by other elements of the KGB who found his methods counterproductive); and forcing the mayor of San Antonio to kill one of his staff, threatening to rape her and then kill her himself anyway if he didn't. (He complied).
  • Iron Rose, the sadistic dolphin from Cold Blood. Usually, when you see a dolphin as the villain, it's Played for Laughs or as a parody. Iron Rose, though, is played straight, as unfunny and unsympathetically as possible. He murders innocent sea creatures such as porpoises for humor, captures the human girl Natalie and plans to rape her and then drown her when he's done. As soon as the protagonist, Kevin, and his bird foster parents, Ebony and Phil, come in, he breaks Ebony's wing in front of Kevin and laughs as she moans in pain. Then he tries to kill Kevin in front of Ebony and almost succeeds. At first, it looks like he has a Freudian Excuse when, at the end, he's beached and he claims that he was abused as a calf. Kevin instantly feels sorry for him and gets him back into the water. However, as soon as he's done that, Iron Rose reveals that that was all a lie, that he's been killing things for years, and that he's even murdered his own mother. And then tries to kill Kevin after the latter saved his life.
  • The worst in Global Guardians PBEM Universe by far is The Blood Red King (the Anthropomorphic Personification of Terror), who, on a lark, once invaded the maternity ward of a Belgian hospital and suffocated all the babies whose name began with an "odd-numbered" letter (A = 1, C = 3, and so on). He once forced a crusading televangelist to rape, strangle, and dismember his own teenage daughter during a live television broadcast because he didn't like the man's hair.
Also, entries that should be moved to Monster.Fan Works:

  • Alexia from The Return who uses Mind Rape as a recruitment tool, turning unwilling humans into her compliant, loving daughter Succubi, and then gleefully abuses, discards, and uses them as Cannon Fodder; after all, it doesn't matter if they die - she can always make more. Of the villains so far, she might not have been the biggest, but certainly the scariest due to her ability and willingness to strike at our heroes' sense of identity and security. She also caused the most pain and suffering and was considered appalling even by the standards of other demons.
  • Sweet Tooth from Holy Musical B@man. He gleefully murders people using various sorts of deadly candy but doesn't become a Complete Monster until he reveals his final plan: he kidnaps Robin and sends a video message out to Batman, telling him that he has Robin and has started a Facebook poll asking Gotham to choose-either Robin dies or Sweet Tooth poisons the water supply. And if Batman tries saving Robin, he just poisons the water anyways. And he's never given any motivation, which means that this horrible Sadistic Choice and all his other crimes are most likely For the Evulz.

Thoughts?

edited 5th Dec '12 12:05:00 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5394: Dec 5th 2012 at 11:46:52 AM

[up]You're talking about the cutting of the Witch of East and West as the obvious cuts that should be run here first? They've been cut before and were readded just the other day. I did what we've always done in those cases—removed the example, PM'd the author, and asked them to come here and explain why they feel the character qualifies. That's not a unilateral cut; it's what we've always done.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#5395: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:37:45 PM

@5394 The only The Wizard Of Oz villain that has ever been brought up in this thread was Princess Mombi of Return To Oz, way back in post @680 (yes, post six hundred and eighty, nine months ago). It's one thing to remove a character that had been removed after voting in this thread that someone keeps trying to put back in. If you remove a character like that without discussion, you risk causing an Edit War and getting dinged by the mods. Part of the reason we're doing this cleanup is to avoid those.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#5396: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:40:29 PM

[up] So we can't remove examples and PM the poster to bring them up here? That's how I had the The Fall of Cybertron examples brought up. Ah well, live and learn.

edited 5th Dec '12 12:50:54 PM by DrPsyche

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#5397: Dec 5th 2012 at 12:55:57 PM

Okay, to step things back, because I think folks are getting confused as to what happens in what scenario.

First, as always, keep in mind that I am not a moderator. I can say how things have worked in my experience, and I can give my opinions on matters, but the mods themselves can step in at any time and say "32_Footsteps is talking out of his ass; this is how it *really* works."

In general, moderators tend to be pretty lax, from what I've seen, when we outright cut stub entries for Complete Monster with the intention of getting folks in here to discuss the example. That said, it's a bit risky. If you cut without discussion and the other person tries to re-add it, that's the elements required for an Edit War, and the other person has just as much right to say that you should get Edit Banned as they are.

It's even riskier if, in a case like the Wicked Witch of the East, the entry in question does try to explain why the character belongs but you don't agree. Best case scenario, you end up with a duplicate of the above scenario. Worst case scenario, you get an Edit War that starts blazing its way through this thread as well (which I'm now calling the Turbo scenario, since that's exactly what happened there).

If it's really the cut-and-dried case you think it is, bring it up here for a vote. If it is a token issue, it's not hard to get a few votes in favor of your action, in which case you gain the imprimatur of the workshop endorsed by the moderators for the cut.

It's really about two things. One is fairness - if we want folks to use the Special Efforts workshop to deal with this trope, we have to do it ourselves. Nobody can say "oh, the Special Efforts folks are unfair in how they handle this trope" if we put ourselves through the same process.

Two, it's about protecting ourselves. Given the intense feelings that this trope engenders, we all know that we find ourselves frequently inserting ourselves (or causing) Edit Wars and, unfortunately, the occasional Flame War. We can claim that we're doing work for the wiki as a whole, but all you need is one moderator thinking that you're doing a personal crusade instead to end up appealing an Edit Ban. I don't want anyone here to get a ban; I advocate the position and actions that I do in order to ensure that nobody does get an edit ban.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5398: Dec 5th 2012 at 1:11:14 PM

Alright, I'm going through the Monster.Literature subsection. I know Judge Holden from Blood Meridian was cut for being a poor;y written entry, so I'll do a new one for him.

  • Judge Holden from Blood Meridian is one of the most famous and memorable monsters in American Literature. Our first introduction to him is him casually ruining a man's life for no reason at all by claiming him guilty of a crime several towns over, before confessing he had never met the man before and just destroyed his life for giggles. Holden acts as a corrupting force to the Glanton Gang throughout the novel, subtly pushing them to commit more and more atrocities on the undeserving. Holden's savagery and cruelty utterly outstrip the rest of his contemporaries and the lives he takes are often done so with more terrible violence then the others. Holden thinks nothing of killing children and graphically murders them on screen, and children going missing from areas he visits after he is seen tempting them with sweets. The true nature of Holden is left ambiguous, but he is a man who desires nothing less than permanent violence and closes the novel with a murder implied to be too horrible to show even in this World Half Empty

As to the problematic ones..

  • And the setting of The City Trilogy is populated by an overwhelming number of them. The title of "Worst Human Being Alive" belongs to either the Cardinal, the ill-tempered crime lord who wields absolute power over the city, or Paucar Wami, a personable serial killer/assassin who considers murder an artform.

Need expansion here. I have not read this trilogy so I cannot say.

  • The Archimandrite Luseferous from Iain M. Banks' novel The Algebraist. "[T]hat most deplorable of beings, a psychopathic sadist with a fertile imagination."

Ditto.

  • Dennis Lehane has quite a few in his Kenzie/Gennaro series, including Marion Socia in A Drink Before The War, a gang leader who pimped out his own underaged son; Leon and Roberta Trett and Corwin Earll, child molesters and murderers in Gone Baby Gone; and Scott Pearce in Prayers For Rain, who specialized in driving his victims to suicide.

And in triplicate. I can do a writeup for these, though, as I've read the series

  • First Mate Cox from Pratchett's Nation is quite like many of the Discworld villains listed above, except with none of the Evilly Affable charm, twice as much dog-kicking, and (possibly) cannibalism.
    • That last bit requires some context. Cox eventually turns up in the company of a cannibal war party. They don't like him very much.

Likewise.

  • In Ricardo Pinto's series The Stone Dance Of The Chameleon, you have the Chosen, tall white humanoids who believe they are superior to every other being. They don't see any other humanoid as deserving of any kind of rights or freedoms. So you have most deciding to torture, rape, dismember, and destroy non-Chosen families/clans For the Evulz and a Law system that mandates the starvation and purification of said humanoids in death camps and slavery chains in inhospitable cold abysses beneath the ground so that the Chosen do not have to look at them. Yet, have hope for there is a Moral Event Horizon. However, it's somewhere where you don't slice out someone's eyeballs and replace them with stones because they glimpsed a Chosen's face or crucify someone in harsh sunlight by holding them aloft by wires cutting through their limbs and then watch for a week while that wire slowly slices off all their appendages and the victim dies of dehydration and the bloated, tortured body falls to the ground, which are all daily occurrences. It gets a LOT worse at the end of book 2. By the time you get to book 3, you have a jihad.

No groups rule, and not even one of the Chosen is evil. That said, there'sone who stands above the others in evil, so this can be reworked to include him

  • The magician Cippola from Mario and the Magician is a stand-in for Mussolini. Among his pettier acts is forcing Mario to kiss him in front of his bride.

I'm sure he qualifies, but needs more reasons.

  • The Narrator from "The Tell-Tale Heart.'' Though he is a Tragic Villain saying that he was tortured by the old man's vulture eye and is also the main character, that still doesn't excuse the fact that he murdered the old man and cut the man up and put his pieces underneath the floorboard.

This needs to be cut with extreme prejudice. This guy does love the old man (so he says), and he's clearly cuckoo for coco puffs.

  • Venandekatra the Vile in Belisarius Series is so hammy in his evilness that you get the impression the author mainly wanted to see how much evil he could cram into a single character.

Cut. Cut. Cut.

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#5399: Dec 5th 2012 at 1:27:45 PM

[up][up] Wouldn't the item under question need to be added and removed multiple times to count as a Edit War? I would think that such a thing would be noticeable before it got out of hand.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#5400: Dec 5th 2012 at 2:40:02 PM

[up][up][up]How is what I did not doing that? I followed what has been common procedure for examples that were added unilaterally-I cut the example, PM'd the person who wrote it and asked them to come to the forum, and then posted it here. I've done this for lots of examples. So have other posters. I didn't just axe an example I didn't like, which is what you seem to think I did. I've been watching the literature page for weeks. Anytime someone adds or changes or removes an example without going through us, I've removed/reverted/readded the example and asked the person who made the edit to bring it here. Same thing I've done on the Gundam subpage for that matter. Why is it suddenly a problem?


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