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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#53201: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:02:11 PM

So, I'm back after a lengthy absence. Not sure how often I'll be posting, but I'm going to try and do it more often than I was.

So I'll join those who've said "no" on Craven because that sounds like a "dark for dark's sake" story and we try not to vote up too many of those.

Anyway, thought I'd propose a character. I was going back through all my old Warhammer stuff now that they've gone and blown up that setting, and I came across a character who may qualify. As far as I can tell from a search, we've never talked about him before. For those unfamiliar with him, meet Gorthor the Beastlord.

Who is Gorthor? What has he done?'

Gorthor was the greatest ever of the Beastlords, and in many ways, was a test-run for Archaon the Everchosen, the Chaos Champion who eventually ended the world. Granted visions by the Chaos Gods, Gorthor sought to unite the Beastman tribes into a single, cohesive whole, and invaded the empire with the intent of exterminating the human race. In the process of uniting the tribes, Gorthor murdered every shaman who opposed him, skinned them, and made a cloak out of their hides, using the magic retained within said cloak to establish a near-hypnotic control over his horde.

Pouring out of the Middle Mountains and into Ostland, Gorthor destroyed every city, town, village, and isolated cabin in the province, slaughtering every man, woman, and child he could get his hands on, combatant or non-combatant. He always left one man alive to run to the next settlement and spread the fear of his oncoming army. Briefly halted by a rival army of Black Orcs, Gorthor slew their chieftain, then massacred the rest of the Orcs as they retreated, before entering Hochland.

In Hochland, Gorthor repeated the pattern that had served him so well in Ostland, putting every settlement that still stood (many had retreated to the capital) to the torch. When they broke into a quarter of the capital, every one left there was killed. When an emissary from Count Mikael refused to betray his lord, Gorthor ate him alive on the spot. In the end, an army of knights returning from crusade fell on Gorthor's horde from behind, trapping him between themselves and the city. Unable to escape, Gorthor was slain in combat with Count Mikael.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Most followers of Chaos want to kill millions and bring about the end of the world, the Beastmen even moreso. However, prior to the End Times event that closed off the series, few ever came closer to success, or ratcheted up a higher bodycount than Gorthor. His rampage through Ostland and Hochland left millions dead, all but depopulating both provinces in the process. It would take decades for the two provinces to recover, and many of the regions around the Middle Mountains, where Gorthor's march began, never would. When it comes to sheer scale of destruction he outdoes all his fellow Beastmen, all followers of Chaos before Archaon, and, as far as I can tell, all the other antagonistic factions, including the Vampire Counts and the Orcs.

It's also worth noting that his habit of skinning Bray-Shamans and donning their hides is repulsive even among his own kind. Beastmen don't have much in the way of moral standards, and will generally rape, torture, and mutilate anything they can get their hands on, but Bray-Shamans are considered inviolate, and to so much as touch one without his permission, let alone harm one, is a crime that results in exile or execution. Ungrol Four-Horn is the only other Beastman character to have killed a shaman, a crime that saw him run out of his tribe, and a price put on his head—and that was for one murder. Gorthor wore the hides of every shaman who had ever opposed him, then used their latent remaining magic to hypnotize their followers into serving him.

Pass, I think.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

No. Gorthor is willing to engage a foe in single combat, but only to demonstrate his own prowess, not out of any sense of honour. There's no evidence that he ever cared about anyone other than himself, and his violation of his people's most sacred taboo demonstrates little racial loyalty either.

It's perhaps worth noting that Khazrak One-Eye, the most powerful Beastlord to come along after Gorthor, did possess something approaching a sense of fair play and had a Worthy Opponent thing going on with Count Boris Todbringer.

Pass.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

The Beastmen belong to Chaos, body and soul. Born twisted and warped they are inevitably driven from Imperial or Bretonnian society and forced to live out their lives in the dark forests, hating humanity for pushing them to it. Whether a Beastman could ever aspire to be "good" is a very good question; it's quite possible that the Chaos taint on their souls would prevent it.

That said, the Beastmen do have a few standards. Chieftains can only be slain in combat, not in their sleep, and Bray-Shamans are inviolate. This indicates they are capable of some sort of moral thinking, and have some notion of taboos—taboos that Gorthor cheerfully violated six ways from doomsday when he skinned a bunch of Bray-Shamans and wore them as a cloak.

Pass, I think.

Final verdict?

Gorthor's the worst Beastman in the setting and, I would contend, one of the worst villains in the setting, barring truly epic adversaries like Archaon or Nagash.

What do we all say?

edited 22nd Feb '16 7:26:44 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#53203: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:17:41 PM

Gorthor seems like a pass. [tup]

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#53205: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:20:38 PM

@Austin_DR: The journal might give us more backstory information on Bill but it's unlikely to have any effect on the character as we saw him in the present day. If he had mitigating qualities, he sure as heck lost them all overtime.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#53206: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:26:13 PM

Should we include attempted infanticide to Sora Takeuchi's entry for turning his girlfriend into a bomb and being just seconds away from pulling the trigger? I don't know if we consider murdering an unborn fetus to be infanticide but it's still pretty dickish to do and adds to his callous disregard for human life. There's also the fact he raped his girlfriend and was willing to off his own child.

I'm surprised even Occasional Exister and Light up voted Bill. Their votes (along with Ambar's) are pretty much a guarantee that the character is this trope.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#53207: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:27:35 PM

[up]No. That gets us into the abortion wars. Assuming the character has enough other stuff to qualify based on, lets stay the heck away from that.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53208: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:49:03 PM

Wait really bill cipher? I'm not gonna question it, but he did appear to have genuine friends with those entity's, even if he was a massive prick, oh well, maybe one day Steven universe will get one.

And about hojo, the reason I don't see him as such is because compared to what other villains do, even the ones that aren't under the syndrome, still did a lot worse.

edited 22nd Feb '16 7:50:03 PM by Mediawatcher

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#53209: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:52:05 PM

Did you even read Bill's effort post?

edited 22nd Feb '16 7:53:16 PM by AustinDR

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53210: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:54:16 PM

Yes, it's still wierd for me, like I said I won't question it. Destroying reality just for the sake and even destroying is beyond messed up, and is enough to warrant him an effort post, but for some reason, I just keep finding it odd.

edited 22nd Feb '16 7:56:40 PM by Mediawatcher

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#53211: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:56:27 PM

I decided to do a rewrite for Dark Aegis from the Iron Man cartoon, since I thought it was a little bare bones. Here's the original:

  • Iron Man: Despite appearing in only one episode ("Distant Boundaries"), Dark Aegis outstripped any other villain in sheer monstrosity. A foe of Tony Stark who'd been hurled out into space, Dark Aegis later wiped out a planet and showed no remorse for it whatsoever. Dark Aegis later attempts to use a superweapon to destroy a moon, and then attempts to destroy a sun as well. His attitude towards what this will do to an inhabited solar system amounts to: "So what?"

And here's my rewrite:

  • Iron Man: Despite appearing in only one episode ("Distant Boundaries"), Dark Aegis outstripped any other villain in sheer monstrosity. A foe of Tony Stark, Dark Aegis hijacked one of his satellites designed to destroy asteroids and intended to turn its firepower upon the Earth. Tony managed to stop him and launched Dark Aegis into the depths of space. Dark Aegis eventually wound up landing on the planet Elysian. Drunk with his immense power and declaring himself a god, Dark Aegis nuked the planet and slaughtered its inhabitants for being "grotesquely less than human". Promising Titanium Man upgraded weapons in exchange for luring Iron Man to the planet, Dark Aegis tried to convince Tony to join him, promising him godhood in the process. Dark Aegis demonstrated his power by destroying two of Elysian's moons and requested Tony's help in destroying the planet's duel-suns. Titanium Man ended up helping Stark and Rhodey fight Dark Aegis and later gave his life to stop him for good, as Titanium Man found that no weapon was worth the price of letting Dark Aegis live.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53212: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:58:04 PM

I bet yellow diamond will count at some point, she certainly seems like she will be heinous enough.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#53213: Feb 22nd 2016 at 7:59:20 PM

Let's go ahead and get Nomad wrapped up before the topic is lost and before I attempt the write up. Here are the votes so far:

[tup]: Overlord, ACW, MGD 107, Demon Duckof Doom, Lord Xavius,

[tdown]: Occasional Exister

Abstain: Hamburger Time

More votes one way or another would seal the deal, though he looks like a keeper at this point. If you missed it, the effort post is on page 2120, post 52990.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#53214: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:00:06 PM

Let's just wait and see, though considering how it was already brought up as to how idealistic the series is, it seems unlikely.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53215: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:01:46 PM

Hey Robinson, I swear your photo from don't hug I'm scared frightens me, especially since I've actually seen that video.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53217: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:14:00 PM

@Austin DR: I agree with waiting on Yellow Diamond, but I think people are overestimating this show's idealism in regards to how villains will be treated and the like. We already know that Yellow Diamond authorized some downright sickening Nazi-tier war crimes for little reason other than spite and pettiness and is apathetic to her henchmen at best. Of course, that doesn't rule out a potential Pet The Dog here or there, but I highly doubt she's going to be redeemable or morally grey or the like.

But anyway, that's not important right now. I feel like I allowed myself to be hit with a ton of spoilers, but Bill is an incredibly easy [tup] for me. I don't think I've ever seen a villain hailing from Disney (or heck, most kid's animation in general) anywhere near as screwed up as this guy.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53218: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:14:48 PM

Does nurse ratchet or ares from God of war count? They seem heinous enough. And please do not redeem yellow diamond, that would be so forced, maybe not cm, but please don't redeem her, maybe just a small redeeming value, standard, or a pet the dog moment, no redeeming her! Even for what type of show this is, it wouldn't be both fair or logical.

edited 22nd Feb '16 8:18:26 PM by Mediawatcher

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#53219: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:20:12 PM

[up] I don't think anyone from that series counts, considering how much of an Anti-Hero / Anti-Villain Kratos is.

Also this is not the first time Austin has used a DHMIS icon. Pretty sure he used the computer image (y'know, that one) before. At least it's just a cute butterfly. Albeit uncanny. tongue

edited 22nd Feb '16 8:22:22 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
millenniumrex Since: Jan, 2010
#53220: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:20:36 PM

Yeah, both Blue Diamond (comes off like a religious fanatic, perfectly willing to execute one of her own soldiers for fusing with a higher-caste gem despite doing it to save that gem's life, oversaw a brutal occupation of Earth and was a ringleader in the gem empire) and Yellow Diamond (clear Omnicidal Maniac, seems unwilling to consider any option that doesn't involve the death of billions) both seem like clear wait-and-see candidates, but given the general tone of SU, I doubt they'll pass in the end. Every other villain has either been redeemed or failed the heinousness standard pretty clearly.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#53221: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:22:50 PM

I highly doubt either diamond will be redeemed, but they will be horrible, that's undeniable, not cm, but still pretty bad.

edited 22nd Feb '16 8:26:54 PM by Mediawatcher

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#53222: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:34:02 PM

[up][up][up]That, and the Clock, and the Sketchbook.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#53223: Feb 22nd 2016 at 8:52:10 PM

Going to lend a yes vote to Gorthor.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#53224: Feb 22nd 2016 at 9:00:49 PM

[up]Excellent. Just need a few more there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#53225: Feb 22nd 2016 at 9:05:09 PM

Yes indeed to Gorthor.

Also, I second NJR....Bob, can we perhaps read some better fiction? There's plenty quality horror with complete monsters!


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