During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cal. Too batshit.
The edits to the Octopus entry are fine.
Though I do have a question, what's the rule on characters with split personalities?
Because in the Pony POV Series, some things have changed involving Discord that may or may not effect his entry:
During the finale arc, after his Rewriting Reality endgame kicks in (long story short, he and a cousin of his teamed up to rewrite reality into a chaotic mess, though the worst parts of it are due to his cousin, who doesn't count by virtue of lack of moral agency), he has a discussion with Bon Bon that makes him face the fact that even when reality is rewritten to make people see him as Not Evil, Just Misunderstood (his actions don't change, ponies are basically brainwashed into seeing him that way), ponies STILL see his former actions as monstrous and him in a bad light and Bon Bon suggests he always had a choice.
The thing is, this doesn't change DISCORD'S actions. Instead, it basically reawakens his Dissy personality (basically Discord was suffering from Amnesiac Dissonance when he first incarnated into the mortal world and was named Dissy, and when his original memories reawakened, his refusal to accept Dissy as part of himself and vice versa resulted in them splitting into independent personalities and Discord seemingly destroyed Dissy and took over again).
Basically, Discord was faced with an event that WOULD have triggered a Heel Realization, but his refusal to acknowledge it caused his seemingly gone good split personality to reawaken because Discord above everything is TERRIFIED of facing any proof he has the potential to be good, and actively ignores it so he can keep being a hedonistic psychopath, which is the entire reason Dissy and him were split personalities to begin with.
After this, Dissy proceeds to use Discord's powers when Discord's sleeping to sabotage Discord's side and help the good guys, while Discord remains a Psychopathic Manchild and turns the area around his group's Supervillain Lair into a World of Chaos with plenty of brainwashed ponies like he did to Equestria originally.
So, does the fact Discord has a benevolent split personality that re-emerged because he refused to face the possibility he has a chance to be good when its right there in front of him effect his Complete Monster cred?
Seems like Cal's a no, but Clown-Face, keep in mind resources here. I mean, sure, he may be outdone by the non-human Sabbat and Death, Kazan's probably the better comparison.Him failing the heinousness standard is the one thing I will not concede, unless we want to cut Kazan as well.
As for Booth, I'll see what I think once I read that story.
edited 21st Feb '16 4:40:39 PM by ACW
That self-deluding behavior of Booth is really the dealbreaker for him, as the enormity of his crimes rank him among the most despicable villains. I could see it as a redeeming trait, as it implies that he'd rather not have gone through with the Atomic War if he knew the consequences to America in advance. Otherwise he doesn't really show any remorse for his actions.
edited 21st Feb '16 4:47:22 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I was wondering earlier; Tony Todd plays a lot of villains, but I don't recall any of his performances that I've seen ending up as CMs. Zoom seems like a contender so far, and not having watched the movie, I don't know if the CM from The Rock is Tony Todd or not. Does anybody know if he's ever played a CM before (other than in The Rock, if he's one there)?
It's the duo from The Rock, so he counts. He also was a CM as General Juma. Similar to Christopher Lee: Played many villains, but don't think he was ever a CM.
edited 21st Feb '16 5:05:16 PM by ACW
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Never really got into 24, but I did see an episode or two with Todd in them. Forgot if his character's name was Juma or Dubaku (I know it's the former now, of course). And I googled the CMs from The Rock after the post (that actually seems like a not half-bad movie; Sean Connery, Ed Harris, Michael Biehn, Tony Todd... the cast is awesome, at least). If Zoom gets approved (lots of heinous crimes and no redeeming features so far, but, aside from fan theories, there's no hint as to who the guy really is or what his backstory's like, so it's impossible to say), he'll be up to three. As an aside, how awesome is Tony Todd? He's got a super cool voice, and he's a fantastic actor (one of my favourite DS9 episodes is that time travel one where he plays Jake, and his performance as the Candyman is terrifying). Great in everything I've ever seen him in. He's part of my imaginary cast for a lot of personal projects (in one, he "plays" a Big Bad who'd probably make the cut if he ever reached consideration).
The mention of Christopher Lee got me thinking (Dracula, Dooku, and Saruman are probably the closest I know of to this trope, but they all fail for various reasons). Is it me, or are there some actors that it's just hard to imagine as CMs? Nathan Fillion, David Boreanaz, Chuck Connors, David Tennant... hell, even Clancy Brown is hard to picture as a monster when you see how he is out of character. Funny what a bit of Playing Against Type or Mean Character, Nice Actor can result in, huh?
edited 21st Feb '16 5:24:50 PM by DeCarta
Before the Sha Po Lang 2 villains, let me get this effortpost off my chest after so long. Frobert Mccammon's villain from They Thirst, Prince Conrad Vulkan.
Who Is He?
Conrad Vulkan was born the prince of a province in Hungary, to a powerful ruler and his mistress. The illegitimate Conrad was given to the ruler's legitimate wife as her own child to cover for her being barren. Raised in his father's shadow, Conrad hungered for greatness. At the age of seventeen, his family was crossing the mountains in a carriage when it was suddenly attacked by the undead. Conrad was injured, his father killed. The injured Conrad was set upon by a hungry vampire and drained. Awakening as one, Conrad lived as a feral beast among his own kind until his natural strength and cruelty won out. Conrad set about dominating the other animalistic vampires. Styling himself Prince Vulkan, he dreamed of nothing short of absolute conquest. He was a prince, why not be king of his new subjects? He organized the vampires, raiding the nearby villages, killing and converting others. Eventually, Vulkan was found by a mysterious being called The Headmaster, who, in the centuries hence, would inspire Vulkan and mold him into a more dangerous creature. Vulkan set his sights on America.
'What's He Done?
Vulkan sets up shop in Los Angeles, in the mansion of a deceased movie star. Once there, he begins to send visions to the worst people. An albino gangbanger named Kobra is drawn in, where he massacres a bar nearby, and is later vamped by Vulkan to lead his armies. Vulkan begins to use his servants to convert people in huge numbers in secret,having the vampires enact mass slaughter in lower income areas where few notice people missing. Seeking to expand his base, Vulkan sends his vampire forces to slowly convert all the street gangs, and then has entire buildings and residence areas drained of blood. In another instance, a hospital is invaded with no survivors, all there either killed or turned.
Vulkan himself shuts away in his mansion where, not risking going out to feed, dominates the mind of a serial killer named Roach. Inspiring Roach to further murders, Vulkan also has him kidnap women and bring them for Vulkan to feed on. When his elderly servant, Philip Falco, begins having doubts about the mission, Vulkan decides to cut away any attempt at rebellion by gruesomely and painfully killing Falco, after revealing he never, ever had any intention of honoring the bargain he made with Falco (turning him). When a reporter gets too close to the truth, Vulkan has her invited to his mansion before mentally dominating her and making her 'playact' at having dinner with him in a touch of cruelty before he drains her.
He promises Roach to eventually turn him as well, but fully intends to simply kill him when his usefulness is over. Using Kobra as a military commander, Vulkan prepares to martial the vampire army and sweep through California and the rest of the US.
At the end of the novel when the good guys have caught wise and have been going to confront Vulkan, the Headmaster warns him this is actually a much greater threat Vulkan is taking it for. Vulkan gives a "Meh" at that. The Headmaster gets fed up and abandons Vulkan...the good guys get captured and Vulkan threatens to send his army out to capture humans to be brought back to feed his growing court, when an earthquake hits, sinking the chunks of the city that are infested. Terrified, Vulkan screams for the Headmaster to save him, and attempts to escape by turning into a giant bat. One of the heroes, a terminally ill priest named Father Silvera, understands just why he's survived so long and throws himself off the balcony at Vulkan, sending both careening into the sea (the salt water is poison to vampires).
Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?
None that matters. Vulkan is less powerful vampire king and more a spoiled brat who never grew up. He adapted to being a vampire extremely well and was nasty even for the species. Most are just feral creatures, but Vulkan made himself a ruler and actually exerts mental dominance over the vampires. It is entirely within his purview which vampires recover their old personalities..
The Headmaster is the only relationship he has that's lasting, and Vulkan uses him as something of a substitute father figure. However, Vulkan doesn't really 'love' him by any stretch of the imagination. The Headmaster is strongly implied to be the Devil or an agent of the Devil, and it's indicated the earthquake at the end is God himself striking down Vulkan's plans. When the Headmaster announces he's done helping Vulkan, Vulkan screams at him to get lost, he never really needed him, 'school is out' and then gloats later over how he's better than the Headmaster gave him credit for. So nope, nothing redeeming.
Vulkan's got a HUGE body count. His vampire army numbers at least 600,000 and he makes a point of killing the old and infirm to only have the young and special as his army. Really, he's an immature brat with too much power trying to be a vampire monarch and it shows, but he's no less evil for it. We also see other vampires can be capable of morality with their sentience, like Vulkan has when freed of his influence, so no dice on that front.
So yeah, keeper
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Connors played a werewolf named Skorzeny. I forgot the name of the work, but the entry is under Live-Action TV. I'm surprised you forgot this (especially since you remembered Fillion as Caleb), but Boreanaz played Angelus. Aside from Nibiru, Clancy Brown was the Kurgan, Montross, Silas, and there are probably others.
It happens, but this one is extra amusing, since not only is Angelus a huge part of Angel's whole story, he's the page image for Buffyverse!
edited 21st Feb '16 5:42:57 PM by DeCarta
Oh, right, that ![]()
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. I was thinking of him as Angel, wondered what else he was in...forgetting the obvious
. And I found the work with Skorzeny. Called, appropriately enough, Werewolf.
Actually, salt's considered a bit of a weakness of evil creatures. As salt is an effective preservative, it acts...well, the undead don't like it.
Is Clancy Brown the reigning champion for this trope? He's possibly got the most entries, besides, say, Kiefer Sutherland
edited 21st Feb '16 5:41:45 PM by Lightysnake
Vulkan. Though, the actual Big Bad, the Headmaster, just... leaves? Sounds kinda anticlimactic.
Kiefer? And who does Brown have besides Nibiru? I know Mark Hamill has a lot:
From thereedited 21st Feb '16 5:47:40 PM by ACW
The Headmaster isn't really the Big Bad compared to Vulkan. He functions more as an adviser, and it's strongly implied he's the devil. He sees the writing on the wall they're going to lose if Vulkan keeps carrying on and gets while the getting's good. It end as a solid win for the good guys, as all the villains end up wiped out
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Ah, beat me to it. My posts take too long to write. I'm confused by Kiefer too; the only CM of his that I know of is the villain from ''Pompeii. Anyone know any others?
to Prince Vulkan, at any rate.
edited 21st Feb '16 5:51:15 PM by DeCarta
