During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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While everyone has the right to their own standards, I kinda disagree with this idea. If someone no longer cares about their dead parents, they would simply not mention them, having actively say that may not fit in with the context of the dark and may seem awkward and add nothing to the story. I think the character no longer mentions their parents and their goals have nothing to do with their parents deaths and are entirely selfish, that is enough for me.
edited 21st Feb '16 10:02:04 AM by Overlord
After reading about he maestro from marvel, he doesn't seem like a complete monster, he even fell under woobie destroyer of worlds, same kind of goes for Kefka, so are they monsters? I get it their actions, but they seem to have legitimate reasons to be crazy, I think anyone would snap under their circumstances.
Can't speak on Maestro, but for Kefka I think it was determined that his Freudian Excuse of being a Psycho Prototype wasn't enough to disqualify him.
@ 53015 Mediawatcher, have you read Future Imperfect, the comic that features the Maestro? Because he doesn't come off as a Wobbie of any kind in that story. Yes Maestro claims that he is talking from the world that persecuted him in the first place, but Hulk who suffered the same persecution doesn't buy that argument at all. The Maestro is also actively cruel and sadistic, forcing women to become his sex slaves, saying he enjoys beating people to death, having one of his slaves rape the Hulk after he had him paralyzed and subjects his enemies (ie people who resist his rule), to a mind raping device. Maestro kills his former friend Rick Jones and says he prefers his slaves to his former wife Betty, because they have no opinions of their own. Also at the end of the story, Maestro just flat says he is worthy to rule simply because he is the strongest, so he is just a Nietzsche Wannabe at the end, so all his excuses seem like BS. Yes the persecution is likely the beginning of why he is what he is, but its the only reason, Maestro has become cruel and corrupt, in love with power and the wanting a life that caters to his every whim, no matter how much people suffer for it. Also the people who Maestro rules over now have nothing to do any past persecution, which just makes him seem petty and cruel.
Now the narration claims that Maestro is insane due to radiation after the Earth is subjected to a nuclear war, but again, Maestro seems corrupt, not insane, all of his actions are calculated and premeditated, that is not the sign of a mad man and the story makes moral judgments against him. He would be insane, if he attacked random people thinking they were his old enemies, but he doesn't do that, he sets up a dictatorship and makes others his slaves, that is not insane, that is evil.
edited 21st Feb '16 12:30:24 PM by Overlord
Regarding Nomad's love for his parents, he never once mentions them himself and they are only brought up by Icthlarin when the player asks about Nomad's past. It's an entirely optional conversation so many people may not even learn about the fact. Ultimately, if he did still love his parents after they passed on and that actually factors into who he is today, then enslaving the souls of countless recently deceased innocents and twisting them into an Eldritch Abomination seems like the ultimate hypocrisy.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Yes but even if a villain doesn't mention their dead loved ones that doesn't mean they no longer care about them. How often does anyone bring up people they've loved and lost who've been dead for decades if no one else brings it up to them first (especially to an enemy)? It doesn't mean that person doesn't care, it just means they have no reason to mention it. If the writers wanted him to be seen as pure evil, why would they mention how the loss of his parents drove him insane with grief at all?
Oh, he definitely seems bad...there's one thing I hope Scraggle addresses (and, despite not watching the show, I saw the scene in question) that makes me hesitate.
This is currently on the FAQ. Would anyone object to adding the part in parenthesis?
What about this film/book/game/show that was just released? Can I add its villain pretty please?: Hold your horses. Not everyone will have had the chance to see it yet. Further, people who do plan to see it will be very annoyed with you for posting spoilers. It is customary to allow two weeks past a work's official release date (one week for television episodes) for people to catch up before proposing an example.
edited 21st Feb '16 3:12:35 PM by ACW
Alright, here it is. The long-awaited (or not
; long-promised?
) effortpost for Judge Cal, from the Judge Dredd story "The Day the Law Died." I think he made other appearances, but I'm just using that story.
Who is Judge Cal and what has he done?
Judge Cal is the head of the Special Judicial Squad (SJS), basically the Internal Affairs branch for the Judges. He has greater ambition, and after framing Judge Dredd for a murder, he has his men assassinate the Chief Judge, thereby taking control of Mega-City One. He enacts all kinds of arbitrary laws, and the entire city is subject to his whims. We also find out that he has been brainwashing other Judges to obey him. In the end, he tried to gas all of the cirty (himself included evidently), leaving the buildings standing "as a monument to perfect government! "(His) government!" He is stopped at the last second by Dredd and Boisterous Bruiser Fergee.
Heinousness standard?
Well, considering he tried to kill (and came thisclose to succeeding) all of Mega-City One, he easily compares with Kazan, and possibly Judge Death too. Not as many as Sabbat, but he doesn't have Sabbat's powers, not Sabbat's goal. Add in his arbitrary dickishness, and this is an EASY pass here.
Disqualifying Factors?
Now, this is where it gets tricky. There are three potential problems:
- First off, he describes himself as heartbroken when Judge Fish (more of which below) dies. While I do consider caring for animals disqualifying, this happens less than halfway through the story, and is never brought up again. So, enough to make me pause, but not enough to disqualify,
- Second, he seems to get along with the alien mercenaries he hires, but this seems to be because as he says to the leader, "You're so delightfully vicious!" I don't think this is disqualifying, but understand if others do.
- Now, the one thing that may disqualify him: He is utterly insane. He at least starts out fairly sane (the plan to frame Dredd; murdering the Chief Judge), but as the story progresses, he becomes more and more unhinged. He appoints his fish as Deputy Chief Judge, and when falling to his death, he seems to believe he can order everything to make it so that he's unharmed.
Final Verdict?
He's easily heinous enough. I'm just not sure if he's not too insane to count. Honestly, I think a case could be made either way. I'm taking the odd step of abstaining from my own proposal, at least for now. I just wanna see what everyone else thinks. Any questions, ask away,
Incidentally, I'll soon be reading Origins
edited 21st Feb '16 3:23:20 PM by ACW
No on Cal. ACW, Lighty and myself already explained several times why he doesn't count, so I really don't see why you do an effortpost anyway.
Cal has major disqualifying factors, most importantly that he's so bonkers that he's genuinely out of touch with reality, and he's also eclipsed heinousness-wise by other villains who set the bar incredibly high. Cal's arc is also in the days when the comic was generally lighter in tone and its bad guys were treated more comedically. When Judge Death sentences the city of death, it becomes the Necropolis horrorshow. When Cal sentences the city to death, it's capped with jokes about Cal expecting people to neatly report in alphabetical order.
edited 21st Feb '16 3:49:40 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I just wanted to make it official either way. Though while I grant you that it might've been lighter back then, and that maybe Cal is too absolutely bonkers, I have to argue that he's eclipsed in heinousness. He tried to kill all of Mega-City One.
Incidentally, what's your avatar?
edited 21st Feb '16 3:43:14 PM by ACW
^^^^ They Live!.
Regarding Booth... I don't know. He is completely delusional about plunging the world into nuclear war, claiming that he planned for the United States to come out of it entirely unharmed. It's a bit ambiguous whether this is out of a sense of patriotism or just egotistical posturing.
edited 21st Feb '16 4:01:58 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Alright, the Yu-Gi-Oh stuff is all done at the Drafts page.