During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Clown-Face: There's only two—three provided Null gets approved (which seems to be the case). Four for whenever Kraang's arc is finished in the 2012 series (provided something doesn't come along to make him sympathetic/tragic/redeeming, etc). The TMNT series never really struck me as having that many nasty villains. I doubt it'll have its own subpage since there has to be at least five CMs.
@bobg: I don't see why not. If it's been over a year then he probably won't reappear again (and even if he does, he may end up doing more heinous stuff).
edited 20th Feb '16 9:14:51 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Well, I'm finally here with my effort post on Nomad from Runescape. Sorry it took so long, but I have been busy the last few days.
Who is he?
Nomad is the creator and curator of the Soul Wars minigame in which players on opposing teams kill one another, take soul fragments and feed them to an artifact called the Soul Obelisk, and thereby weaken the opposing teams avatars so that they can be slain. For a long time, that was all that was known about Nomad as he was very mysterious otherwise. The quest Nomad's Requiem reveal a much darker aspect of his character and later quests expand on how truly evil Nomad was all along.
What has he done?
During Nomad's Requiem, we discover the entirety of the Soul Wars minigame was nothing more than a giant ruse created by Nomad so that he could siphon off souls and gain there power. The souls of those slain during the minigame are siphoned off into the soul obelisk and into a throne which greatly empowers Nomad. We learn at the end of the quest that Nomad did all this in order to gain enough power to betray and usurp his former master. It appears he is slain at the end of the quest, but he is able to stay alive by devouring the souls siphoned into him.
We next encounter Nomad in the quest Dishonor Among Thieves wherein chaos god Zamorak assembles a heist team to steal back the immensely powerful divine artifact known as the Stone of Jas. Nomad is recruited because of his skill in manipulating souls. We meet Nomad as Death tries to claim his "long overdue" soul and because Nomad stole countless souls to gain power. Nomad is saved by intervention on behalf of the player and taken to the heist. It turns out that Nomad was again only wanting more power and betrays Zamorak by stealing a piece of the Stone of Jas to further his own goals.
Nomad's final and most horrifying appearance is in the quest Nomad's Elegy. Nomad, alongside an army of religious fanatics known as the Order of Ascension, storm the fortress of Icthlarin, god of the Underworld, and place a great soul obelisk, empowered by the shard of the Stone of Jas, to absorb the souls of everyone that dies on Gielinor and shred and reform into some new form. The player, with the help of Icthlarin and Death, gather together a band of deceased characters to storm Nomad's fortress. Along the way, the player can meet either Astrid or Brand, a character the player would have been arranged to marry in one quest. After helping the player and reaffirming their love, Nomad arrives and destroys their soul while mocking the player that they'll never see Astrid or Brand again.
The band of heroes lay seige to Nomad's fortress, and he spends all of that time mocking and belittling the player as being a failure and not a true hero. He asserts that the player's hubris lead to the death of Guthix and the return of the gods to Geilinor, and states that devouring the player's souls will be an exquisite experience. He even claims that is his destiny to be Gielinor's savior by dethroning the gods and stopping their tyranny. Once inside the fortress, we learn the horrifying manner in which he intends to do that. His master plan is to absorb the souls of countless innocents with the soul obelisk and shape them into a new god that Nomad controls and can use to purge the gods on Gielinor. Just to show how petty he is, Nomad shapes this new deity into the form of the deceased Guthix and names his new pet god Gielinor. It's made very obvious that the souls are in constant agony and suffering and subsequent destruction of the false god is treated fully as a mercy kill. When finally defeated himself, Nomad shows no regret and still sees himself as the only savior Gielinor and its people could ever have.
Any mitigating factors?
There are two potential issues here. First, Icthlarin says Nomad was left an orphan at a young age when his parents died and it drove him to grief and insanity. I could dispute it in my own words, but I'll give Runescape's writing team the honor here by giving this statement said by Icthlarin: "He wasn't always...this. He was born with a powerful soul. It shone so bright that even in life I felt it. But then, like all bright things, it became tarnished and clouded. I took his parents to their afterlife, filled with grief that they had orphaned their only child. Had circumstances been in his favour he could have become a great hero for this world. But grief and loss corrupted him and he turned against everything. His soul has gone dark then, beyond my preception. I am ashamed to say that I simply forgot about him. But whatever choices he made in that time, they turned him into the monster he is now. Make no mistake. He chose this path. He has had decades to change his fate, but he has always returned to this. Now he torments and destroys countless souls to feed his own ambition. It is terrible to see potential wasted, but far worse to see it perverted into true evil."
Second, Nomad claims to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist who only seeks to end free Gielinor and its people from the tyranny of the gods who currently squabble over it. Everyone present in universe immediately calls him out on his viewpoint and says his actions are beyond evil, even former hero Xenia who also tried the same goal with far less destructive methods. Out of universe, I can say he is an utter hypocrite in that regard considering what he does to the souls of the dead. Icthlarin describes several afterlives of followers of different gods and says they are all pleasant and wondrous for servants of those gods. That really does show Nomad's argument holds no ground and he only deludes himself into believing what he is doing is right.
As for the heinous standard, he is roughly as powerful as Lord Drakan but his actions affect the innocent in a whole different way.
Final Verdict?
I do honestly believe Nomad counts and both his Freudian Excuse and his belief that he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist hold absolutely no water in light of what he's done, and he also passes the heinous standard quite nicely.
edited 20th Feb '16 9:41:30 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.I'm very unsure on Nomad. The Freudian Excuse is vague, but it's just existent enough to make me want to abstain for now.
Is there anyway to resize images with the Tv Tropes Image Uploader? I have an image of Nomad's false god that I want to show but it comes out to small when uploaded for anyone to see it very where. Or what other common programs could I use?
edited 20th Feb '16 9:43:35 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Unsure on Nomad, given his possible Freudian Excuse. I'll have to sleep on it.
@ 52989 Tyk5919, I actually disagree with that a bit and here's why, first the original Mirage TMNT comic was not for kids, it was for young adults and was pretty dark (the Turtles with the blades had no problem using them on human enemies and indeed Splinter trained the Tutles to be assassins to kill the Shredder and avenge his master) so the TMNT was not always a light hearted series and indeed has some dark origins. Even TMNT Adventures, which started out as an adaption of the 87 cartoon, went down its own dark path and allowed for villains like Null to appear.
Second there are so many different TMNT continuities over the years, which allows for different villains with different characterizations in different universes with Heinous Standards, it can be easy for a variety of different monsters to show up within with these different continuities. At this point, we don't have nearly enough examples to justify a sub page, but we could find some more down line.
I will say that it is unlikely there are any monsters in the Mirage universe, considering the theme of that series was a never ending Cycle of Revenge and the Turtles trying to escape it and that only works if all the main players have loved ones they wish to avenge. The only Mirage villain I thought could come close was Baxter Stockman, who was not trying to avenge anyone, who had no redeeming qualities, but when I proposed him, it seems like people didn't think he was evil enough and I can see why. I was unsure about Mirage Stockman myself, he seems to straddle the line between just a very nasty villain and a Complete Monster.
I will give a tentative
to Nomad and a
to Hitomi.
edited 20th Feb '16 10:43:23 PM by Overlord
@Clown-Face: No, that giant entry at the beginning is all for Utrom Shredder (or Ch'rell). There's two sub-bullets, but all three of them are only for one villain. The second main bullet is for Rat King.
@Overlord: I feel like I'm someone who only watches Game of Thrones and you're someone who reads A Song of Ice and Fire and you just screamed at me "I READ THE FUCKING BOOKS!" ...No, I'm not angry. Just a little joke from a video I saw.
I'm aware that the old-school comics were much darker (and all the turtles wore red bandannas....for some reason); I just never assumed any of the villains really stuck out. I'm a bit surprised that with how long this forum's been up, hardly any villains from the TMNT comics got proposed. But I see your point.
I was never really a huge fan of TMNT, even though I loved the movies as a kid. I wasn't really "hunting" for any CMs either; Kraang from the 2012 series was one of those "Eh. What the hell. I guess I'll effortpost him." examples I came across while I was binge-watching. The only reason why I started binge-watching the old-school and Nickelodeon series was because of the trailer for the upcoming TMNT movie this June. Not that I regret my decision.
If I spot any other villains from the shows, I'll bring it up, but right now, my interest in the series has stagnated now that I'm caught up with the 2012 series and am "patiently" waiting for their second hiatus for Season 4 to end.
Fair enough, I will say that I feel like that a TMNT fan fic could delve into some darker subject matter and have a suitable monster without seeming gratuitous, because I feel like TMNT is a franchise that can be either light hearted or dark depending on what the story demands, its not like MLP or Care Bars, which should stick to the lighter side of things.
I like the TMNT franchise, because I liked the 87 carton as a kid and I really did like the original comics when I found them, its actually a better big contrast to see how the 87 cartoon and the Mirage comics handle the same basic idea in vastly different ways and how the other continuities have tackled the basic idea in vastly different ways as well.
edited 20th Feb '16 11:26:12 PM by Overlord
The original discussion for The Dollmaker started here https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=1566.on
I don't watch the show so I don't know how he compares to Jerome and Galavan, but you can find an effort post for him on that page.
jjj- Beast: I fixed Julian's writeup.
- Leaning
on Nomad. Heinousness standard is easily met, what with the And I Must Scream of the souls. If approved, where would he go? I'm thinking either before or after Drakan?
- Think I'll
Gotham!Dollmaker. He seems to have the bodycount (or, worse, leaving the victims alive); was gonna kill or maim many kids; and inflicts And I Must Scream. Different type of CM from the Ax-Crazy Valeska or The Chessmaster Galavan, but just as monstrous (if not more so).
edited 21st Feb '16 1:11:34 AM by ACW
So I was watching a review of a 1990 movie by the name of Street Hunter, which seems to present a bit of an oddity: a Reb Brown-played Complete Monster. Reb is an action star from the 1980s, probably most familiar to people from his role in the MST 3 K-lampooned Space Mutiny.
Most of his roles are action heroes (including Captain America!), so villains are quite Playing Against Type. Reb also played a Serial Killer in Death of a Soldier, but that character was so insane there's no way he'd qualify (believing that he could "steal women's voices", among other things). In Street Hunter, he plays a Psycho for Hire and Dragon-in-Chief to a mob boss. Long story short, he orders the death of nine cops to break his boss out of lockup, destroys the entire mafia, kills his own men on a pretty frequent basis, and tries to shoot the hero's dog! He boasts of being a Vietnam vet, but it doesn't seem to have given him any trauma and he's apparently just sad that the war is over. Given Reb's acting chops it's a Dull Surprise performance, but his character is just your basic Blood Knight with no disqualifying trait that I can see.
I haven't been able to find a non-VHS copy, but I just wanted to give a head's up in case anyone wants to pursue this.
edited 21st Feb '16 3:53:44 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Dollmaker
Nomad. "My parents are DEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAD" isn't a good enough excuse for trapping so many souls in And I Must Scream scenarios, and he seems to never bring them up, so he likely lost that redeeming frait gears ago.
edited 21st Feb '16 7:13:03 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
@Morgen: You can rent it on Amazon Instant Video for four bucks, but otherwise I'm not sure where else to watch. I might have to give this movie a pass. Swamped with college stuff today. X__X
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.On Nomad, minor issue with the effort post, though it doesn't really matter. The Stone of Jas fragment depends on whether or not the player let him get it in Dishonor Among Thieves. He also kills his former assistant and the player at the beginning of Nomad's Elegy. (Though the player gets better since Death Is Cheap for them.)
The afterlife also isn't completely perfect for everyone as the Bandosian afterlife had a section set aside solely for torturing Zanik and some other cave goblins for eternity for defying and killing Bandos, and they are somehow able to be influenced without realizing it by another god.
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I'm talking about Street Hunter, not Space Mutiny.
edited 21st Feb '16 7:49:23 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Re Nomad: That sounds like the weakest Freudian Excuse imaginable. His parents died... so he devours and enslaves souls in an attempt to kill the gods. I feel like he missed a step somewhere. That being said, while he sounds heinous enough, unless there's proof he no longer loves his parents, then I'd vote no to him. With characters who start off with redeeming qualities, I need evidence they no longer have them before voting yes for them.

Also has anyone considered this for the Sonic Monster page?
"The Sonic Series is a Long running series with many different continuities, and many different characters in each. This page lists the Complete Monsters."