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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#52176: Feb 7th 2016 at 1:45:07 PM

The thing about that is we never SEE him feed anyone to sharks. If his evil was established some more, even if we only saw some bones on his boat which would visibly imply what he's been doing than I would approve keeping him here. But his villainy is entirely offscreen, which I find hypocritical since we've cut other characters despite being stated to have done some pretty awful things offscreen.

edited 7th Feb '16 1:46:35 PM by username2527

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#52177: Feb 7th 2016 at 1:51:53 PM

@ ACW, okay I just added Coyote to the sandbox. I guess he will go up in next Sunday's batch eh?

Well one day I will find the strength to do a proposal on the worst Daredevil villain of them all....Stilt-Man!

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#52178: Feb 7th 2016 at 1:53:51 PM

[up][up] We don't see ANYTHING? Not even attempting to do that to someone else? If that's the case, I'm switching to a [tdown].
[up] Yeah, he'll go w/ next week's.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#52179: Feb 7th 2016 at 1:57:08 PM

Yeah, Hazanko's a cut. Having recently finished the series, I can tell you firsthand he has about as much personality as a block of wood.

As for Frakes, if we really have nothing to back up his claims that he feeds people to sharks, it's Offscreen Villainy. Even a trophy from one of two of his victims would be enough, but, if that's not the case, I'll say cut him.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#52180: Feb 7th 2016 at 2:08:43 PM

Having learned a bit more about the trope and having talked with username, I think I'll lean to cut Frakes. I believe my original argument was the whole "serial killer establishing a pattern" thing, but the problem is, as has been said, we never get an exact measurement of his previous body count. He's obviously not strange to the process and he's obviously intent on doing it again, but his character is way too lenient on implications. Since those aren't enough, I'll cast a vote to cut Frakes.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#52182: Feb 7th 2016 at 2:30:08 PM

Ravok, to be fair though, it's not like Ronan (who I'm NOT arguing against; that discussion was thorough) or "[Hatred Not Important]]" were terribly dynamic characters either. Now, if Hazanko's ACTIONS aren't bad enough...how many (attempted) murders does he have to his name?

edited 7th Feb '16 2:33:00 PM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52183: Feb 7th 2016 at 2:51:41 PM

Jake Abernathy has three yes votes on the Image Suggestions crowner. Any other votes?

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#52184: Feb 7th 2016 at 4:07:30 PM

I requested Frakes and the Rose character be cut, but waiting for clarification on this before I cut Hazanko.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52185: Feb 7th 2016 at 4:16:58 PM

Re Hazanko: He seems to have quite a bit under his belt. He kills his crew (which I assume had a quite a bit of members) and uses his squad to kill potential threats "with no care for collateral damage", so he has those. He also kills Harry Mac Dougal.

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#52186: Feb 7th 2016 at 4:20:45 PM

At least three of us who've seen the series are saying he doesn't count at this point.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#52187: Feb 7th 2016 at 4:23:49 PM

Alright, that's probably enough. Still not totally convinced on lack of personality, but seems that he doesn't have the actions (like the attempted planet-destroyer Ronan and the Misanthrope Supreme "Not Important") either. And...done.

edited 7th Feb '16 4:24:50 PM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52188: Feb 7th 2016 at 5:32:45 PM

Okay, I'm going to propose a villain from a martial arts movie I watched when I was younger. The film's name is Five Element Ninjas.

Here's the plot: Two rival martial arts masters, Chief Hong and Yuan Zeng, have their classes battle to decide who is the better master. Zeng's students defeat Hong's, so he brings in a samurai from a Japanese ninja class. The samurai defeats one of Zeng's students and convinces him to kill himself, but then one of Zeng's leading students, Sheng, defeats the samurai, who commits suicide himself.

This leaves Chief Hong pissed, and he collaborates with ninja master Cheng Yun Mudou to get revenge...

Who Is He

You thought I was going to be proposing Chief Hong, didn't you? Nope, it's Cheng Yun Mudou who's the real villain. When the two conspire with each other, Mudou has his ninja class, the Five Element Ninjas, go off to challenge Zeng's students. However, he doesn't just want to beat them. Mudou wishes to be the Lord of the martial world, and to do that, he intends to wipe out his competitors.

Mudou has his ninjas kill several of Zeng's students. Zeng, who had been poisoned by the samurai earlier before his suicide, will need months to recover, and Mudou uses that as an opportunity to strike while he's vulnerable. He sends a female spy named Senji to infiltrate the school. Once she's learned the security system, Mudou and his ninjas strike. They then proceed to absolutely slaughter Zeng's class, with Mudou personally killing Sheng. They then set Zeng's room on fire with him in it, and he dies from smoke inhalation.

The only survivor is Tian Hao, who Senji had taken a liking to. Afterwards, Chief Hong offers a gift to Mudou for his accomplishments, but Mudou then reveals that he never intended to go back to Japan: he wants to take Chief Hong's place as well. He then proceeds to kill Hong and his class and takes over. Meanwhile, Hao escapes. As punishment, Mudou has Senji sentenced to hard labor.

Hao is trained by an old master and returns, issuing a challenge to Mudou. Mudou accepts, but sends Senji off to spy on Hao to find his master. Hao kills Senji, and later on he, along with his new master's students, face off against Mudou and his ninja army. After a along battle, the ninjas are defeated, and Hao and Mudou square off. The battle ends when they manage to impale Mudou, but at a cost: Mudou kills Hao right before he dies.

Any mitigating factors

He's not exactly a Bad Boss towards his students, but he shows no care for them, including Senji.

Heinous standard

The only character worth comparing him to is Chief Hong, but Mudou clearly surpasses him in heinousness. Nearly every death in this film is Mudou's fault.

Thoughts?

edited 7th Feb '16 5:48:47 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#52189: Feb 7th 2016 at 6:35:56 PM

@ACW: Honestly, Hazanko's not even extremely heinous, IMO.

He runs a group of assassins; He murders an Anti-Villain; He tries to kill the heroes; He's a Bad Boss; He expresses a desire to rule the galaxy.

That's about it.

Also, when I say he's a block of wood, I mean it. He's not Faux Affably Evil, misanthropic, or even Ax-Crazy. All of his lines are comprised of the most generic villain phrases you can think of.

Put it this way, when it comes to personality, he makes Shan Yu, Not Important, and Ronan look like Scar, Handsome Jack, and Loki.

edited 7th Feb '16 6:43:23 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#52190: Feb 7th 2016 at 6:51:21 PM

Seems like Cheng Yun Mudou is a [tup].

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#52191: Feb 7th 2016 at 6:58:44 PM

I give a [tup] to Cheng Yun Mudou.

Also cut Hazanko and Frakes.

Anyway picking up on the thread of bad movies and any Complete Monsters in them, I was watching some Chris Stuckmann reviews of some pretty bad movies and I thought I would ask, do the main villains of Mortal Kombat Annihilation (Shao Kahn) and Dragon Ball Evolution (Piccolo) count or are they just GDV characters? I have no real intention of ever seeing these films, but I thought it be interesting question to ask, maybe someone on this thread had the misfortune of watching these films. I hope I am not overstepping my bounds by asking this question, by asking other people's opinions on film characters I never intend to watch.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:11:16 PM by Overlord

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52192: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:11:34 PM

[up]Wait... if Piccolo were to count (I haven't seen the movie), would we have to add him to Monster.Dragon Ball?

Why so serious?
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#52193: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:14:43 PM

[up] Maybe, though Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, seems to think that movie doesn't count as Dragon Ball related entertainment, so maybe not.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:16:50 PM by Overlord

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52194: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:25:30 PM

Speaking of Dragon Ball, could this image of Frieza stabbing Krillin work as the page image?

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52196: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:28:58 PM

Oh, another thing for Mudou: it's mentioned by Hao that Mudou had killed 153 people prior to the events of the film.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:29:06 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#52197: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:31:17 PM

@Clown-Face: Ehh, the image seems a bit obscured. Hard to see who's getting stabbed.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:31:31 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#52198: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:31:58 PM

Regarding the Star Trek image that was brought up, does a villain torturing the hero a good image for this trope?

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#52199: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:38:58 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Toriyama said the movies don't count toward the original manga series but they still count for the anime which is produced by Toei Animation. As for the Dragonball Evolution Piccolo I seriously doubt he counts.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#52200: Feb 7th 2016 at 7:42:00 PM

@Tyk: Well, we at least have the Cell images.

As for Star Trek, I'd say that's a good image. I mean, killing heroes and torturing them are two different things.

Why so serious?

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