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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#51901: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:02:17 AM

Ok, some free time just opened up, so here's Keith.

Who is he?

Keith Hillstead is the father of the Big Bad, Jack Jr, and his primary reason for becoming a Serial Killer.

What has he done?

At some point, Keith came under the impression he was a descendant of Jack the Ripper.

When he confronted his parents with the knowledge, they denied it profusely, mainly because it wasn't true. Keith responded by killing both of them.

Keith becamne an infamous Serial Killer, whose MO was to kidnap, torture, rape, and butcher young women (Normally prostitutes or strippers).

Realising he needs to "continue the legacy," Keith seduces a young woman into marrying him. He then spends weeks torturing and raping her, both physically and psychologically, into becoming his "breeder."

Keith spent the next few weeks continuing the torture and rape until she became pregnant. If the baby was a daughter, it's heavily implied he planned to kill it and try again.

The woman gives birth, and Keith gives her an ultimatum: Continue to live as his wife and raise the boy as the "normal" parent of the relationship, and in exchange, he won't harm her ever again. If she refused, he would torture her to death.

She accepted, and became the "maid" of the family, doing jobs she was expected to, like cooking and cleaning.

When their son, Peter, turned 8, Keith began educating him in torturing and raping "whores."

Over the years, Keith amassed approx. 100 victims, whose pictures he took during their tortures and deaths he keeps in an album.

One night, planning to murder Keith, Patricia (the mother), tells Keith he can touch her if he wants. He responds by raping and beating her for hours on end.

She tries to kill him, to no avail, and he delivers a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown to her, then tries to slit her throat. He is murdered when his son betrays and kills him.

Freudian Excuse?

Pffft. Whether he genuinely believes he's a descendant of The Ripper, or if it's just his "schtick", is never told.

Redeeming features?

He let Patricia live as the mother in order to have his own little "maid." He has no actual care for her or their son, treating him as nothing more than an extension of himself and his legacy.

Heinousness?

He's not as bad as Jack Jr, but this is due to lack of screentime. Besides that, he's easily the second worst character in the novel.

Final Verdict?

Tentative [tup]

edited 2nd Feb '16 9:10:34 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#51902: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:04:25 AM

[tdown] Jack, Jr, sadly. He seems to love his mother in some way.

[tup] Keith, since he has much less screentime than Jack.

edited 2nd Feb '16 9:07:17 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51904: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:15:07 AM

[tup] Keith, with one caveat: Is he too insane to count? Like, anyone who somehow believes he's a descendant of Jack the Ripper can't be right in the head.

edited 2nd Feb '16 9:16:38 AM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#51905: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:15:48 AM

[tup]Keith.

Why so serious?
MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#51906: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:18:05 AM

About Jack Jr. If he really didn't care for his mother he would have killed her when he got the chance since she's a dangerous witness. Maybe he would have more sense if his mother died of natural causes before he started his killing spree and then if he didn't mention her or pay homage to her memory. See Dio Brando and Jafar's cases. So my vote is [tdown] for now. Too bad. [tup] for Keith.

edited 2nd Feb '16 9:30:30 AM by MovieFan2000

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51907: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:37:04 AM

Being raised as a killer in this way hasn't ever been mitigating for me. Furthermore, I think people are extrapolating affection. He's clearly no longer the same person as an adult, and not killing his mother can easily simply be a total lack of care about her. If he's never remotely affectionate there, I don't see a reason to count it as mitigating.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51908: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:37:29 AM

BTW, Ravok, if you like crime novels, try this. A really bad villain (the subject of my first full effortpost), and a DOOZY of a twist.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51909: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:39:32 AM

Also, ACW, I think you try to look too hard for disqualifying factors...why would believing yourself to be a famous murderer's descendant make you 'too crazy?'

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51910: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:44:26 AM

Maybe I do, but I don't know, someone who thinks that, unless there's a good reason (the effortpost didn't elaborate), just doesn't seem all there to me, IMHO.

edited 2nd Feb '16 9:45:15 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51911: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:48:26 AM

Because he's an evil, egotistical serial killer who takes pride in a famous lineage?

MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#51913: Feb 2nd 2016 at 9:52:21 AM

You know what ? I change my vote for Jack Jr to a [tup]. Maybe he didn't kill his mother simply because either he didn't feel like it or he literally forgot about her. It's not a moral reason for sure.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#51915: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:48:20 AM

Actually, yeah, if he didn't mention his mother, it's entirely possible he just doesn't care enough. [tup] Jack Jr.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#51916: Feb 2nd 2016 at 11:11:25 AM

Eh... wary on voting on Jack Jr. Exister has a point; being raised like someone like Keith in an environment like that doesn't exactly lend you much choice in who you end up becoming. Add in some of the more ambiguous qualities surrounding his mother and I don't think I can solidly vote yes.

edited 2nd Feb '16 11:13:01 AM by Scraggle

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51917: Feb 2nd 2016 at 11:13:08 AM

Nothing indicates, however, he is portrayed as a victim. Martin Vanger is a similar sort of character. Or any character raised as an heir or legacy that we've approved

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#51919: Feb 2nd 2016 at 11:31:59 AM

@ACW: Nah, Keith isn't protrayed as really insane. He does hate women to an absurd degree, and he seems to truly believe he's a descendant of The Ripper, but there's nothing about him that scream "mental illness."

As for Jack Jr's being raised as a Killer, here is his quote I referred to regarding him acknowledging his "excuse".

" I was not the victim of sexual or physical abuse as a child. I was not a bedwetter, and I did not torture small animals. I am something far purer. I am a legacy. I do what I do because I come from a bloodline, from the FIRST. It is truly what I was born to do."

Ultimately, I'm not sure. The FBI agents acknowledge Keith raised Jack Jr in this environment, but, again, it's not portrayed as sympathetic or an excuse. It's more treated as a "This is why he is evil. Whether you believe it's a good excuse or not is up to you."

edited 2nd Feb '16 11:35:15 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#51921: Feb 2nd 2016 at 12:03:00 PM

Anyways, I reiterate what I said here. Sorry, just want this resolved.

edited 2nd Feb '16 12:03:31 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51922: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:24:23 PM

[tup] to Jr and Kieth.

edited 2nd Feb '16 1:24:32 PM by SatoshiBakura

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#51923: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:33:15 PM

I am unsure about Jack Jr. While you could argue that he just forgot about his mother, the fact remains that he never once attempted to get revenge on her for disowning him. If my parents disowned me, I would seek revenge, mabye not through killing them, but I would do something. There's also the fact that she could have finally one day told the police after her conscience finally got to her.

I will vote [tup] for his father though.

edited 2nd Feb '16 1:38:10 PM by bobg

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#51924: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:37:14 PM

[tup] Keith. I already voted [tup] for Jack Jr, but I'm unsure about taking it back. If he never talks or thinks about his mother, it's kind of hard to tell if his love for her is in the past, or if he's another Mark Hoffman.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#51925: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:54:57 PM

My sticking point is that she remains a huge loose end and a very big threat to him. It's not like she's fully onboard by what he is and supportive of his actions, she's horrified by him. I can't think of any other reason why he wouldn't silence her other than lingering affection. He sounds like an intelligent, if psychotic, killer, so it seems really unlikely he'd just forget the one person who could expose him for the madman that he is.

edited 2nd Feb '16 1:56:31 PM by OccasionalExister


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