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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#51676: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:11:18 AM

[up][up][up] Well the game is pretty much a standard spaghetti western story. And while Griffon is the Big Bad of the game, he's pretty generic as far as western villains go. It's also followed by Red Dead Redemption and while the two games aren't connected plot wise, when you compare Griffon to someone with similar resources like Allende, he kind of falls flat.

edited 29th Jan '16 9:15:18 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#51677: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:16:35 AM

@ACW: No, I still don't think he counts. Plus I already discussed the whole situation regarding Marwan and this man in great detail during my effortpost of him.

[tup] Trowzer. From what it sounds like, he's a Knight of Cerebus, and the story hit the Cerberus Syndrome hard.

Oh yeah, scratch that whole thing about Fayed. I rewatched the ending of the episode. After Fayed finds out that Nasir's bombing was unsuccessful, his reply was more or less "Eh. Oh well. My other three attacks went off without a hitch. I'll get over it." So, seems like he's still a go. Philip Bauer on the other hand....

As for Griffon, having played that game several times myself....meh. He's quite the villain, but I suppose he's not that vile.

edited 29th Jan '16 9:27:54 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51678: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:26:58 AM

Honestly, I think I'd be less inclined to cut Philip. I never got the idea he loves his kids as people so much as extensions of his legacy. He seems to forget Graem entirely later that same day. Literally.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#51679: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:29:00 AM

[up] True, but Philip did spare Jack when he had a perfect opportunity to kill him. And then he gave Jack a clue that ultimately helped him uncover a promising lead to Dmitri Gredenko.

Huh, Trowzer sounds familiar.......I feel like I did an effortpost on him before. O__o

edited 29th Jan '16 9:32:46 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51680: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:36:03 AM

Yes, but that all fits Philip's plans. He wanted and needed those guys eliminated.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51681: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:37:01 AM

So Fayed can stay (for now). As for Philip, let's see what you think once his arc is done (for the life of me, I can't remember it to well).
P.S. If you can think of a good quote for the page, that'd be good.
Tyk, looks like you did. [lol]
Lighty, how is Slaine?

edited 29th Jan '16 9:38:41 AM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#51682: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:39:04 AM

Yeah, go ahead and cut Griffon.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51684: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:55:25 AM

Actually, with Eckhardt, he's not even responsible for ALL of the killings (apparently). I can't even find an effortpost. Request to cut and link here?

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#51685: Jan 29th 2016 at 9:57:24 AM

I don't know if someone already asked this. Scar, Frollo and Shan-Yu are confirmed monsters in their respective film. Do they still count as well in the Kingdom Hearts franchise?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51686: Jan 29th 2016 at 10:05:23 AM

If they do any deeds in that universe (with Xehanort the standard-bearer).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#51687: Jan 29th 2016 at 10:12:18 AM

[up][up]No, because none of their film actions are represented on screen in the game.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#51688: Jan 29th 2016 at 10:32:44 AM

Actually Very Melon, we see the village after Shan Yu burned it down, and we see Scar killing Mufassa in a flashback. Shan Yu does not count because the game gives him even less characterization than the movie. In fact, not counting battle quotes, he only has two lines; "Attack" and "Now you'll bow to me". Scar was discussed and deemed a non example a while back, something I never agreed with. I know nothing of the version of Frollo from the games though. if anyone wants to reopen discussion on KH Scar or discuss KH Frollo, be my guest.

edited 29th Jan '16 10:33:29 AM by bobg

jjj
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#51689: Jan 29th 2016 at 10:46:47 AM

[up] None of them count. Frollo also is much less vile than he was in the movie.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51690: Jan 29th 2016 at 11:21:23 AM

Slightly condensed Touch of Frost entries:

  • A Touch of Frost:
    • Captain Charlie Lawson from season 5's "No Other Love" is a retired military man and a dominating patriarch who, while initially appearing to be just a stuffy and controlling old man, proves to be an abusive relative of the worst order. He abused his son Peter for years, terrifying Peter well into his adulthood. He has also been raping and sexually abusing his granddaughters for years since they were in their preteens. He abused his oldest granddaughter Joanna until she ran away from home, then he started raping his middle granddaughter Rachel, ending up getting her pregnant before she was sixteen. The only one he hasn’t touched is his youngest, Suzanna, but only because she's currently too young. Captain Lawson kept his family under control through fear, threatening to kill them if they told anyone the truth (all except his wife who was in denial). Fearing the recent police investigation may be enough for Peter to tell what happened, Captain Lawson takes advantage of the fact that his son was robbed at gunpoint, and murders him, framing the mysterious robber. Later, upon Inspector Frost realizing the truth, and confronting Captain Lawson, he holds him at gunpoint. Treating the entire event up this point as a game, he tries to justify his abuse, claiming to love his granddaughters, and proves to have no remorse for his crimes against his own family. He intends to kill Frost, before DS Clive Bernard walks in at the wrong moment and Captain Lawson instead shoots him. Then, realizing he has no chance, he commits suicide. Inspector Frost stated that at heart Lawson was truly just a sick and weak man, who controlled and abused others just because he couldn’t cope with never being anything more than that.
    • Bill Ford from season 12's "Near Death Experience", while initially appearing to be a gentle and pious individual who cares about his extended family's well-being, is actually a brutal psychosexual Serial Killer, responsible for murdering five women. His method is: to use his job in construction to find attractive women in their forties; get a copy of their keys to break into their home; overpower them; latch their hands and ankles together; force them onto their knees; degrade and lightly cut them; stab them to death; take a small lock of their hair; upon leaving set off the alarm so he would be sure someone would find his handywork. Upon breaking into the home of his sister-in-law Lucy, he first disables her fifteen-year-old daughter Helen, his own niece, by smashing her head against a wall, critically injuring her, before murdering Lucy in his usual manner. During the police investigations, he murdered a seventh victim. Upon discovering Martine Philips was helping the police, Ford attacked her, declaring that they can’t stop him, only sparing her because as she didn’t fit his pattern, he wouldn’t get pleasure from her death. The following night he breaks into another woman’s home to make her his next victim, but instead stumbles into Frost’s trap. Finally confronted, Frost tries to talk him down, but a deranged Ford stabs him. Captured he reveals he was driven by a belief attractive women rejected nice guys like him, so in his own words "…so you teach them…yeah…you show them, you show them BITCHES what a man can do, you understand?" A twisted mixture of ego, hypocrisy, misogyny, brutality and insanity, Ford was one of the vilest people Frost ever faced.

edited 29th Jan '16 11:21:30 AM by ACW

Aker-Sama Both Writer And Fighter Since: Jun, 2015
Both Writer And Fighter
#51691: Jan 29th 2016 at 11:30:43 AM

Well, here's my write-up for Jhin since the vote is unanimous so far.

  • Khada Jhin, the Virtuoso is a crazed serial killer-turned-assassin that reveals a hidden dark side to the once pure Ionian council. Originally convicted for mass murder in the province of Zhyun, Jhin was set free by shady elements in the council, and hired to serve as their "secret weapon" of sorts. Mind of the Virtuoso shows us his crimes through his eyes, as he casually murders 4 different people, seeing all of their deaths as a painting mended by his gun. Jhin lives to kill, and as long as the Ionian elders have a grip on him, the law cannot touch him. His in-game dialogue also details an old plan of his to assassinate Shen's father, the master of the Kinkou Order, before Zed beat him to the punch. Now he wants to kill both of them, Zed as revenge for stealing his spotlight, and Shen to serve as his father's "stand-in". Sadistic and seeing no point in peaceful ends, Jhin is one the sickest Combat Aestheticists to ever come to light.

edited 29th Jan '16 11:36:30 AM by Aker-Sama

"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#51692: Jan 29th 2016 at 11:44:23 AM

[tup] Jhin. Also, I added Selene's image in the crowner.

edited 29th Jan '16 11:45:42 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#51693: Jan 29th 2016 at 11:50:07 AM

Still unsure on whether or not Philip Bauer still counts. I'm still binge-watching, but the whole bit with him killing Graem is so damn hazy. Normally I'd agree about him being a CM, but considering first-hand how touchy things get when it comes to ambiguous redeeming qualities, I'm just not sure at the moment.

Anyone else voting on Trowzer? It's 4 [tup], 0 [tdown] now.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51695: Jan 29th 2016 at 12:03:03 PM

Aker-Sama, would Hecarim count?

Aker-Sama Both Writer And Fighter Since: Jun, 2015
Both Writer And Fighter
#51696: Jan 29th 2016 at 12:07:19 PM

[up] He might, I keep taking him down from the YMMV page because to my knowledge, he hasn't been discussed yet.

edited 29th Jan '16 12:09:16 PM by Aker-Sama

"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51697: Jan 29th 2016 at 12:11:09 PM

Care to make an efforpost if you think he does?

Aker-Sama Both Writer And Fighter Since: Jun, 2015
Both Writer And Fighter
#51698: Jan 29th 2016 at 12:22:07 PM

I doubt he does, his stride for power aside, he did seem to be genuinely loyal to his king and happily obeyed his orders. This gives him a redeeming quality, which CM candidates can't have.

"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#51699: Jan 29th 2016 at 12:40:29 PM

[up] Were the orders malign in any fashion, and was the loyalty actually presented as redeeming in any sense? As far as I know, loyalty to someone isn't necessarily an instant cut depending on how it's played. You can have say, a psychopathic killer who's completely loyal and acts on the orders of an evil overlord but only does so because, say, that's how they can pursue their love of death.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009

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