During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Supergirl!Toyman, as of now, doesn't count. The episode makes a big point that he's plagued with mental illness which makes it hard for him to recognize where he's going wrong, and he seems to genuinely love his son and want his son to love him back, without realizing how counterproductive his actions really are to that end.
Is he mentally ill? He seemed just bitter and twisted to me, he thought his boss stole his toy designs, wanted to kill him and ended up killing 6 other people instead when the wrong person opened the box with the bomb it. That sounds immoral, but not insane, it sounds like premeditated attempted murder, with a clear motive, that doesn't sound insane at all and in the episode, he tries to kill his boss again and forces Winn to do it, by threatening to kill hundreds of innocent people if he doesn't. He knows if those people die, it would torment Winn, so frankly that doesn't come off as the plans of someone who is mentally ill, but the actions of cunning planner capable emotional manipulation and premeditated planning.
He is not insane by any legal standpoint. I don't think he counts either at this point (I want to see how he interacts with son in later episodes), but I wanted see how we judge whether a character loves another or not and thought Toyman is a good example
edited 27th Jan '16 8:29:24 PM by Overlord
Re: My little Pony
Sombra was pretty heinous in the S5 finale which showed what would have happened if he succeeded, he was the author of a full scale Equestrian war for God's sake. :P
But I believe he had some kind of tragic backstory revealed in the IDW comics. The only characters without any of that are Tirek (he might be redeemed next season, but so far he's the biggest potential candidate if he doesn't get redeemed, especially with his bad future having him blast the hell out of Equestria as a giant), and Chrysalis (though some could argue some she was merely feeding her children). Starlight Glimmer's biggest Kick the Dog moment was in the S5 finale, but even that doesn't stack up to Tirek. And then we have that villain who caused life to just disappear. If they appear in the series, and don't get redeemed or have any mitigating qualities they might be a contender.
Also
to Elfric (even if his name makes me think of the Elric brothers from Fullmetal Alchemist).
Also Supergirl!Toyman seems too off his rocker to count. Most C Ms are sane individuals or at the very least don't have insanity as an excuse. Though I get the feeling his love for his son was more obsession as if to say "If he can't be with me, I'll kill him!"
edited 28th Jan '16 2:01:50 AM by Klavice
I knew Thawne would come up again. He is a past version of the character, meaning he is before he started caring about Cisco and giving Barry the confession he needs. Nothing in the episode contradicts his Pet the Dog moments at all.
And even if we would take this version of his own, he fails the heinous standart compared to Zoom (who, when his arc is over, would be a far better contender, or so I wager) .
edited 28th Jan '16 5:32:37 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianAs I've mentionned earlier, I didn't intended to use past Thawne's actions. So far, Thawne's motivation for his actions was left unknown. Now, we know that it was the same as in the comics, which shows once again that Thawne was petty and utterly selfish.
Almost all of his others Pet the Dog moments were either a case of Pragmatic Villainy (Thawne pre-reveal), or turned into a Kick the Dog moment (he allowed Henry Allen's freedom just to prove Barry that he'll never be truly happy anyways). His only moment which came close to be a Pet the Dog moment (and the only reason why I think he's probably not a Complete Monster after all) was when he apologized to Cisco for turning him into a metahuman.
That said, Zoom indeed seems to be a good candidate. So far, we only know that he want to be the best (in fact, he's just as selfish as Thawne, if not worse). He'd need an excellent Freudian Excuse for his actions to be even remotely sympathetic.
edited 28th Jan '16 6:27:13 AM by MiraiYuji
Speaking of, it's been a week: How's Vandal Savage looking so far?
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I never really understood that interpretation.
No matter if he thinks Barry will be happy or not, how could giving him the needed intel to get his dad out of jail possibly be a Kick the Dog moment?
Hell, the very fact that he made this video just in case he died means he's some kind of a Graceful Loser.
Also, you forgot how he told Cisco how sorry he is and that he became like the son he never had. Nobody was there watching, he had no reason to say it other than really meaning it, if it was all just a game to him he could`ve put his hand into his chest without any words whatsoever.
Might qualify, but we'll have to wait
It's been a week since the finale of Heroes Reborn, so I'll go ahead and bring up Erica Kravid and Joanne.
Neither count. Erica deeply cares about her daughter Taylor, and her Freudian Excuse is completely justified: when Erica was a teenager, an Evo who had a healing ability told her she could cure her father's terminal illness. He did, and then had sex with Erica multiple times, which led to her getting pregnant.
Joanne has an excuse as well: her son died during the Odessa bombing and she was deeply traumatized by it. And her trauma evolved into hatred, which led to her becoming a sociopath who went around hunting Evos. Now if this was a forum for voting up Scrappies, then yes,
Joanne.
It's probably gonna take some time before I do the effortpost on Kraang Prime, both because I'm focusing on college assignments right now, and because of what happened in the Season 4 premiere, I'm guessing Kraang Prime is alive(?) now, so I may just wait until the season finishes altogether. Still debating. >__< But I still plan on binge-watching Season 6 of 24, and might do an effortpost in a couple weeks on the villain from a Na No Wri Mo story I recently finished posting online.
edited 28th Jan '16 9:08:05 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
to Jhin.
As far as Zoom goes, I'm keeping an eye on him. He's shaping up to be a contender, although he's lacking in much characterisation. I'm still watching and taking notes on what he does. Once the season or Zoom's arc (whichever comes first) is over, if nothing happens to disqualify him, I'll do up an effortpost. My opinion on Thawne remains a reluctant
. Nasty piece of work, but his Pet the Dog moments towards Cisco seem to be the real thing.
Apropos of nothing, I watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica earlier this week. Great series, engrossing and heartwrenching. No CM contenders, I just wanted to comment on what a good show it is.
I know he's been approved, but can anyone who's played the game expand on this? From Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness:
- Complete Monster: Pieter Van Eckhardt is easily the most evil opponent Lara has had. He is not only a remorseless Serial Killer who collects alchemically altered body parts from his murder victims, he also systematically betrays and kills the other members of his Five Bad Band to make sure his secrets remain hidden. He seems to inspire loyalty solely through fear.
Speaking of expanding categories, here's this on ComicBook.A Death In The Family.
Yeah, it's The Joker and he's pretty much given to qualify, but could anyone possibly update that so that it's not a Zero Context Example.
edited 28th Jan '16 3:57:25 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?

Hypothetical question: would a villain saying that he was Just Following Orders be enough to disqualify him from Complete Monsterhood, if there is no way of knowing whether or not this was actually true?