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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#51601: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:09:50 PM

[tup]Elfric. Though, "Elfric seduces Emperor Nero and becomes a favorite of his."

Ho Yay much?

Why so serious?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#51602: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:10:37 PM

[tup] Elfric, who sounds more personal than Feg and thus distinct enough.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51603: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:13:01 PM

[up][up] It's not ambiguous. The two of them are lovers. The Romans don't even like Elfric at all.

At one point, he tells the Legion's leader Suetonius not to bother him with dumb things like tactics in the middle of a battle since he's having too much fun. Moloch will be soon, Dragon-in-Chief of the Fomorians and probably Slaine's most personal villain

edited 27th Jan '16 3:14:10 PM by Lightysnake

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51606: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:28:06 PM

I think there's a good image of Elfric for the monster images:

Noticing a theme here?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#51607: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:29:44 PM

He seduced Nero? I dunno, even if I had an Evil Plan going I'd probably think twice about doing that. Who knows where that guy's been?

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#51608: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:33:52 PM

[tup] to Vincent Goldman, Brian Irons, Copperhead, Slough Feg, and Elfric. [tdown] to Worley.

As far as Eobard Thawne goes, in my opinion it comes down to whether or not his affection for Cisco is enough to disqualify him (I think it is, which is why I voted to cut him a while back). For whatever it's worth, this week's episode revealed that his motive for hating the Flash is the same as in the comics (he hero-worshipped the Flash, found out that he was destined to be Barry's Arch-Enemy, and turned on him out of spite), so there's no mitigating quality there, at least.

I watched How to Train Your Dragon 2 and season 1 of Jessica Jones recently, and want to give an exceptionally belated [tup] to Drago Bludvist and Kilgrave. That said, Kilgrave was extremely well-written and performed; there were moments when I pitied him and wondered whether he could have been more than he was, but never forgot what he was capable of. In my opinion, he's a great example of a CM with some depth.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51609: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:36:22 PM

[tup] Elfric. You say that Moloch's next, but you also mentioned this Balor fellow?
P.S. I know the storylines with Joie and Yhwach are still going on, and Uber's still on hiatus; are the 2 Tokyo Ghoul characters on your watchlist still in ongoing arcs?

edited 27th Jan '16 3:38:11 PM by ACW

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#51610: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:39:15 PM

edited 27th Jan '16 3:44:02 PM by AustinDR

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#51611: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:59:41 PM

Anybody else think It from Agents of SHIELD will have Blue-and-Orange Morality too?

MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#51612: Jan 27th 2016 at 3:59:58 PM

[tup]Elfric. He sounds pretty nasty, to say the least.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#51613: Jan 27th 2016 at 4:26:44 PM

[up][up] Well, It is an Inhuman, so it had to have been human at one time or another. Whether it's current state as a meat-suit wearing worm abomination thing affects it's moral standing is yet to be determined. It's certainly possible. It's at least conscious and aware enough to impersonate Will while it was possessing his body, though.

edited 27th Jan '16 4:28:47 PM by DeCarta

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#51614: Jan 27th 2016 at 4:34:43 PM

[tup] to Elfric

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#51616: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:16:00 PM

Sorry for bringing up ponies but why can't My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic have a Complete Monster? Other than being too dark for the series, what's the main reason it can't?

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#51617: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:21:36 PM

It can, but the nature of the series tends to give everyone some redeeming qualities. The only one to come close isn't actually gone for good to our knowledge, and thus, we decided to wait for a return. The second worst was Sunset Shimmer, and she turned over a new leaf in the latest finale.

Basically, it's unlikely that anyone will stay evil forever, but until the series ends or the character is permanently gone, it's best to wait on anyone that may come up.

Shadow?
Aker-Sama Both Writer And Fighter Since: Jun, 2015
Both Writer And Fighter
#51618: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:45:32 PM

Well, not too long after Mordekaiser's judgement, we got another champion that may or may not fit the bill. Let's have a look. Here's the next League of Legends champion to be judged.

Who Is He?

Jhin, the Virtuoso, is a psychotic serial killer-turned-assassin who exposes a hidden dark to the once pure Ionian council. He takes great pride in his "art", and sees no drama in peaceful deaths. He was once an Ionian prisoner serving his time, presumably for countless other murders he's committed beforehand, before being set free by shady elements within the Ionian ruling council. Now serving as the council's "secret weapon" of sorts, he uses his gun as a paintbrush, painting a layer of fear and terror across the once peaceful island nation.

What's He Done?

His teaser, Mind of the Virtuoso shows him committing 4 different murders, and what he sees said murders as through his eyes, further hammering in the point that Jhin is a crazed gunman. He quite clearly enjoys massacring those he's sent to kill, and feels quite the opposite of remorse for his crimes. It's unknown what landed him in prison in the first place, but considering his mental state when he was let out, one can presume even more murders. Body count aside, Jhin will happily keep killing one man after another, all with sadistic glee. It's also mentioned in his in-game dialogue that he had plans to murder Shen's father, the master of the Kinkou Order, before Zed beat him to the punch. Now he's stated to be out for revenge on both of them for stealing his perfect kill.

Heinous Standard?

Malzahar kills to satisfy the Void, Zed kills out of revenge, and Diana kills out of necessity. Jhin? The guy loves murdering people so much that he views it as an art, with his gun as his paintbrush.

Redeeming Qualities?

Well, one could be glad he hasn't just massacred the entire council whenever he has the chance to, but he's most likely sane enough to know that he'd just get thrown back into the slammer for good if he did that. His affiliation with Ionia seems less out of loyalty, and more out of absolutely having to in order to stay out of prison and keep "working".

edited 27th Jan '16 6:00:12 PM by Aker-Sama

"Roses are red, violets are blue, if I had a brick I'd throw it at you."
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#51619: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:57:17 PM

The only one to come close isn't actually gone for good to our knowledge, and thus, we decided to wait for a return.

Tirek? He was essentially blasted back to the Hell from whence he came at the end of Season 4. It could count as him getting killed off, but at the same time not exactly since he didn't seem very "alive" to start with until he started absorbing magic. In any event, we don't discuss him unless he somehow becomes a relevant topic again in the future.

The second worst was Sunset Shimmer, and she turned over a new leaf in the latest finale.

That's Starlight Glimmer you'd be thinking of, and while her actions were nasty and had horrific consequences, I saw her as one of the least evil Big Bads, if not the least evil.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#51621: Jan 27th 2016 at 6:40:24 PM

[up][up][up][up]Well, I heard some members say that an MLP villain with absolutely no redeeming qualities would go against the whole friendship theme of the series.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#51622: Jan 27th 2016 at 6:50:41 PM

[up][up][up] Until the series ends, there's no way to know about Tirek. And I can't remember every name, I admit.

[up] More or less, yeah. That's why it's severely unlikely.

Shadow?
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#51624: Jan 27th 2016 at 7:06:51 PM

It can, but the nature of the series tends to give everyone some redeeming qualities. The only one to come close isn't actually gone for good to our knowledge, and thus, we decided to wait for a return. The second worst was Sunset Shimmer, and she turned over a new leaf in the latest finale.

Eh, that's kind of arguable. The major villains are close to a 50/50 split of having none if the Sombra comic has been made non-canon by the season finale and the Chrysalis comic is still canon and accurate to what the trope page says.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#51625: Jan 27th 2016 at 7:19:35 PM

I will give a [tup] to Elfric, Jhin and Slough Feg. Abstaining on the Gnome King. [tdown] to Worley.

Also general question, how much does a villain claiming they care about someone and then try to kill that person count as a redeeming characteristic, I asking this in regards to a Supergirl episode from last week:

Where Toyman claims to love his son and indeed saves him from a trap he set for the police, but later tries to blow up his son, along with an entire convention hall. Toyman's love for his son is rather twisted, he forces his son to kill his employer and says he blow up an entire convention hall full of people. When son points out that he will be sent to prison for murder, Toyman says that doesn't matter, because they will be together in prison, so Toyman's love doesn't seem to be Winn's best interests.

Anyway I will now do a write up for Copperhead:

  • Daredevil: Copperhead started off as Lawrence Chesney, son of a man who modeled for the cover of a pulp mag called Copperhead. Lawrence's father felt the publishers cheated, so after his death Lawrence took the mantle of the Copperhead character and enacted his revenge. Copperhead began killing criminals and a cop who tried to stop him. Copperhead quickly establishes himself as a creepy Serial Killer, who puts pennies on the eyes of the victims he just killed. Copperhead killed one of the publishers for revenge, Daredevil stopped him from killing the other publisher and he died while fighting Daredevil. Copperhead went to hell after he died and made a Deal with the Devil. Copperhead returned to Earth as an undead lich and was fueled by a burning hatred of Daredevil. Copperhead gathered other B-list Daredevil villains (Owl, Gladitor II and Stilt-Man) and began a violent turf war with The Kingpin, which costs the lives of many people. Copperhead used those deaths as sacrifices to the Devil, gathering power from those deaths and using it transform part of New York into a version of Hell. Copperhead plans to sacrifice Dardevil and Spider-Man to open a portal to Hell and cause the downfall of mankind. Copperhead also torments his allies with nightmarish illusions, intending to do the same the rest of the world.

Also I added Copperhead to the YMMV section of Daredevil. I'm not sure if any other DD villain can count, DD has a rather high heinious standard, not only with all the other monsters mentioned, but with characters the Kingpin and a couple of creepy one shot Serial Killer villains, like the unfortunately named Rotgut and the creepy Johnny Sockets, who don't count for one reason or another.

Though Charles Soule said the villain for his second Daredevil arc will be really evil, so we will see how that villain pans out.

edited 27th Jan '16 7:34:28 PM by Overlord


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