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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#51126: Jan 19th 2016 at 7:56:25 PM

Changing from [tup] on the star to unsure.

On another note, has anyone heard of the Lucy Kincaid novel series? I ask because I have plans of reading its latest books, Best Laid Plans and No Good Deed, since the villains in them sound sound qualifiers.

Why so serious?
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#51127: Jan 19th 2016 at 8:14:48 PM

[tdown] to Hateful Star for reasons stated above. GDV and Made of Evil entities are not this trope.

Also someone asked about GDV, I think if a villain simply wants to "return everything to the void" for litthe more than "they're evil, rawr" then they count as a Generic Doomsday Villain. But if the character wants to destroy existence because he was bullied for example, then they probably aren't that trope.

Also new Warrior Cats series is coming in March. As usual I will be watching for anyone to possibly top The Big Three. Though like Star Wars, its unlikely. Then again, it could be another case of Hux where a villain appears and massacres the Clans or something and doesn't have an excuse. Now I know I've been eager to propose a fourth example from this series but I won't say anything until I finish the series maybe.

edited 19th Jan '16 8:15:47 PM by Klavice

Maiko2853 Since: Sep, 2011
#51128: Jan 19th 2016 at 8:58:14 PM

Okay, I hate to just drop by here unannounced, but I feel I need to bring this up. There have been two seperate attempts to have Cinder Fall added to the complete monster list without being tested on this forum first. RWBY's third volume is not finished yet, but because of recent episodes and not everyone knowing how adding complete monsters work, they will apparently keep trying to add her.

I have deleted both attempts for the time being and from what I've read of the forum rules, she should not even be considered until at least volume three is done. I would like to ask all of you for advice on what to do for now, as well as your assistence in keeping an eye on RWBY's YMMV page, if it isn't too much trouble that is.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#51129: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:19:57 PM

Cinder hasn't even passed the baseline heinous standard yet. Obviously, we would have to wait until the current season is over or, more likely, when the full scope of her schemes are revealed. Besides, she has a genuine Pet the Dog moment when she gets prosthetic legs for Mercury when he's crippled before they met.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51130: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:26:52 PM

Equipping your pawns isn't Pet the Dog and her actions in the latest episode, IE: unleashing the Grimm on the populace, definitely put her in the running. She shouldn't be discussed until Volume 3 is done, though.

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#51131: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:34:40 PM

So, now that it’s been about a week, here’s my March effortpost for American Horror Story: Hotel. Spoilering a few big plot twists.

Who is he? What has he done?

James Patrick March, the man who built the Hotel Cortez in the 1920's. He specifically built the hotel as a "murder palace," with death traps, hallways with no exits, etc. He murdered countless people, averaging about three a week. He was married to the Countess, though she was still interested in her former lover, Rudolph Valentino. March has the lover, as well as his current girlfriend, sealed behind a wall in an abandoned section of the hotel. They are both vampires, so they don't die from this. They spend nearly 100 years trapped there, unable to die or feed. It isn't really clear if March realizes this or not, though it's still pretty bad, either way. Honestly, I think that if March did indeed know that they'd be alive in that state, that makes him worse.

Eventually, the cops caught up with him, so he killed himself to avoid going to jail. He remains in the hotel as a ghost, and continues to kill people for little to no reason. In addition, he has also served as an Evil Mentor to some of the most prolific serial killers in history, including John Wayne Gacy, Richard Ramirez, and the Zodiac Killer. This makes him indirectly responsible for their murders as well.

As part of this, he is also responsible for corrupting John Lowe into becoming the Ten Commandments killer. March originally started the Ten Commandments killings when he was alive, but was caught by the police and committed suicide before he was able to complete it. As he is incapable of leaving the hotel due to being a ghost, March intends to find a successor to complete what he sees as his greatest achievement. His mentoring of the other serial killers were his previous attempts at this, though they did not live up to his standards.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

I'll be frank, March has a lot of competition. There are a lot of unsympathetic characters this season. Though, with that in mind, March is also the only one who kills purely For the Evulz. Many characters have been infected by an "ancient blood virus," which necessitates that they kill people in order to feed. John Lowe, the Ten Commandments Killer, commits his murders out of a sick sense of moral superiority. March does it just...because. The only person who really comes close to March in terms of villainy is the Countess. However, she doesn't count because she has redeeming qualities, and it's shown that March is responsible for corrupting her, anyway.

There's also the fact that he mentored Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Aileen Wuornos, Richard Ramirez, the Zodiac Killer, and (it's implied) Charles Manson. This makes him indirectly responsible for all of their murders as well. All these people have killed anywhere between 83 and 116 people combined (some of them have disputed numbers of victims). That's not even factoring in the number of people March himself has killed. It's never stated exactly how many victims March has claimed over the years, though he is closely based on real-life serial killer H. H. Holmes, who is estimated to have killed around 200 people in his lifetime. March kills a lot of people onscreen, and likely many more offscreen, so I believe it is safe to assume that his actions do indeed meet the standard. In addition, he corrupted many of the other murderous characters, making him indirectly responsible for thosedeaths as well. Many, though not all, of the deaths that occur in the show can be traced back to March in some way shape or form.

Any Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?

At first, it seems so. He still seems to be in love with his ex-wife, the Countess. But it quickly becomes apparent that it is desire, not love, that he feels. He is totally self-centered in said desire. Everything is always about what he wants. In the penultimate episode, when she is emotionally broken, she plans to leave the hotel for good to escape all the emotional pain from it. March, meanwhile, arranges for her to be killed so that she'll be trapped there for eternity with him.

While March claims that his killing days are over in the last episode, this is not a redeeming quality for him. He does not decide to stop killing for moral reasons, he simply "feels complete" now. He encourages the other ghosts to stop killing as well, but this is a case of Pragmatic Villainy. March doesn't want the hotel torn down because he is uncertain what would happen to him if this occurred. Plus, one of the last scenes shows that he still hosts yearly get-togethers with the murderers he mentored, and while they don't kill anyone there, there is little reason to believe that they wouldn't if there weren't a practical reason not to.

A minor but notable detail, is that when Liz Taylor decides to be killed in the hotel so that she can become a ghost, she is surrounded by all the ghosts in the hotel. It's a very emotional scene, and March is the only ghost absent for it (excluding the ones whose actors they couldn't get to come back for the finale). While he does say that his killing days are over, as stated above, he still hosts his "Devil's Night" get-togethers, and there's no reason to believe that killing doesn't still occur at those. In addition, it would also give him a sympathetic trait to at least be there in support of Liz. But, again, he's the only absent ghost.

The closest thing to a Freudian Excuse March gets is a single mention that his father was "the meanest son of a bitch you've ever met," and once killed a cat simply for purring too loud. However, this is brought up exactly one time, and it is never suggested that March kills because of his Abusive Parents. Even if it was, March kills indiscriminately and has such a high body count that it would probably end up being too flimsy of an excuse to disqualify him anyway.

Final verdict?

All things considered, I think that March is a pretty easy keep.

I actually have a writeup made for him, too, though I'll wait to hear if others think he counts before posting it.

edited 19th Jan '16 9:36:43 PM by Pwnisher248

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51132: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:38:44 PM

I...am not sure. March's actions in the final episode inch him a bit out of the territory for me.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#51133: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:45:40 PM

The American Horror Story seasons take place in the same universe, so March has to compare to the agreed upon examples.

jjj
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51134: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:49:28 PM

Oh, heinous standard is no problem for ol' March.

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#51135: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:52:59 PM

What puts him out of the territory for you? I can think of why, just wondering what your opinion was.

edited 19th Jan '16 9:54:36 PM by Pwnisher248

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51136: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:56:01 PM

Well, when March seems to be on entirely friendly terms with the other ghosts, and his weirdly paternal and friendly relationship with John and his other proteges...in addition, March simply stops killing and influencing other killers, deciding the Ten Commandments murders were his 'epilogue.'

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#51137: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:58:39 PM

[tdown] Hateful Star. Too mysterious.

Abstaining on March.

Remember when I said Tokyo Gore Police might have a qualifier? Yeah, I was wrong. The heinous standard is too high. Every villain does atrocious things, and nobody really stands out. Awesome movie, though, if you have a taste for the batshit insane.

edited 19th Jan '16 9:59:11 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#51138: Jan 19th 2016 at 9:59:13 PM

Now that's another reason I'm kinda unsure on March. Hotel was the single darkest season of AHS yet

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#51139: Jan 19th 2016 at 10:07:22 PM

I wouldn't really say that any of that disqualifies March. I'm sure we've had Affably Evil C Ms before, for one thing. Plus, I don't really recall anything from the finale (or any episode, really) which indicates that March has any genuine care for the ghosts, or the killers he influences. He's polite to them, but politeness =/= caring about someone. Like I mentioned in my effortpost, March is the only ghost absent for Liz Taylor's death scene. This is played in the show as a very sentimental moment, and having March there would've definitely given him a redeeming quality. But he wasn't. He does seem to care for John, but that's because he's necessary for March's plan, as he is unable to leave the hotel. When John decides that he's done working for March, March has his family kidnapped and held hostage to force him to complete March's project for him. Again, while he decides to stop killing, there is nothing redeeming about it. He doesn't feel any guilt or anything, he just...stops. And while we don't actually see him kill anyone else, there's no clear way to tell if it stuck or not. During the "Devil's Night" in the flash-forward, March and the serial killers all threaten to murder a psychic unless she stays away from the hotel, and there's no reason to believe that they were bluffing.

As far as the high heinous standard goes, I don't think that'd be too much of a problem. The only one who even comes close to matching March's body count is the Countess, though I don't feel that she surpasses him in either quantity or cruelty. As far as I can remember, the Countess kills people solely by slitting their throats, save for a single instance where she shot a person in the head. March, meanwhile, doesn't usually grant his victims such quick deaths. We see him smash heads with sledgehammers, brutally stab people to death, burn people alive, seal them up behind walls to die, etc.

edited 19th Jan '16 10:19:35 PM by Pwnisher248

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#51141: Jan 19th 2016 at 11:26:02 PM

It's been two weeks since The Revenant came out wide and I assume someone else will handle the effort post. [tup] to Fitzgerald.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#51142: Jan 20th 2016 at 12:33:14 AM

[up] I thought the worldwide release was on the 8th? Also why are you voting on the guy when no one's even done an effortpost yet? :/

As for March...having seen the season for myself, I'm leaning a little towards a [tup].

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#51143: Jan 20th 2016 at 12:52:18 AM

Wait, this 10 Commandments Killer...isn't moral superiority not a disqualifying factor? Or is he not as heinous?
Incidentally, how's Lady Gaga's performance as the Countess?

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#51144: Jan 20th 2016 at 1:38:27 AM

The Ten Commandments Killer doesn't count due to a genuine love for his family.

And Lady Gaga's performance was actually pretty good. I thought I'd hate this season because I'm not a fan of her, but I actually ended up liking it a lot.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#51145: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:03:00 AM

Can't really vote solidly on March, to be honest.

futuremoviewriter, instead of voting on a candidate that hasn't been effortposted yet and "assuming" someone else will do the effortpost, why don't you effortpost the character yourself? Or at least wait?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#51146: Jan 20th 2016 at 4:32:42 AM

[tup] to March, the guys a platinum standard Lunatic, and could rival the devil himself as The Corrupter.

Plus all (well at least 96%) the evil in that series can be traced back to him. Including the Addiction Demon, which its revealed serves him.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#51147: Jan 20th 2016 at 4:36:28 AM

My only real concern regarding March is that his character page describes him as Affably Evil.

Edit: Since the seasons take place in the same universe, I am wondering if we need to re evaluate any of the approved candidates, considering Tate's crimes in Murder House.

edited 20th Jan '16 5:18:09 AM by bobg

jjj
Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51148: Jan 20th 2016 at 5:33:48 AM

Except maybe Leigh Emerson, I don't think we need to reevaluate anyone for heinousness concerns. I do wonder if this season is too dark for anyone to qualify. Even the most sympathetic characters are at least accomplices to serial murderers and, in the end, they all get away with it. Even March.

Some more points about March:

  • he started killing out of boredom. When one of his victims told him he wasn't afraid because God would punish March for his crimes, he created the Ten Commandement Killer as a way to 'kill' God.
  • when his wife the countess tries to leave him, he has her murdered on hotel property so that she won't have a choice and stay there forever.
  • he's in control of the "addiction demon", a creature (with a drill for a penis) he uses against other ghosts who aren't following orders.

edited 20th Jan '16 5:41:04 AM by Nithael

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#51149: Jan 20th 2016 at 6:14:11 AM

My bad. I thought it was the 6th. Two more days it is. We'll discuss on the 22nd. That's 1/22.

edited 20th Jan '16 6:14:56 AM by futuremoviewriter

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#51150: Jan 20th 2016 at 6:27:20 AM

I'm going to say no to March. Sounds like he has minor redeeming qualities.


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