During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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I wasn't really horrified, mainly 'cause I couldn't even figure out what was trying to be said.
BTW, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys has a couple of CMs; does Xena have any?
edited 11th Jan '16 1:53:46 PM by ACW
Snatcher's final moments was a firm example of Redemption Rejection.
And please, Klavice... we don't need those kinds of rants. Ever. There's literally no point to these irrelevant and occasionally disturbing tangents, so please... stop.
......Mkay then, Klavice.......
...I'm just gonna do an effortpost now. O__o
The guy I'm proposing is the fanfic villain I mentioned last week. His name's Angus Renhym, one of the Arc Villains from the Redwall fanfic What Lies Beyond the Walls.
Who Is He?
Angus Renhym is a Serial Killer who joined the army and led a group of mercenaries known as the Spawn of Hellgates. They helped a warlord conquer several factions in the Northlands. After "leaving" the group, Angus joined a group of vermin called the Red Sand tribe, where he and the whole tribe attacked a peaceful community called Tearmann.
What Has He Done?
When Angus was young, he murdered one of his friends while playing hide and seek out of boredom and because his friend was being obnoxious. When his parents questioned him about it, he lied and told them some other beast came by and choked him to death. Realizing his parents would eventually find out the truth, he killed both of them and decided to live alone. As Angus grew older, he developed a fondness for killing and traveled around Mossflower murdering dozens of innocent beasts in an attempt to discover why he enjoyed what he did. After meeting (and later killing) a ferret who told him about his experience in a war, Angus decided to become part of a war too. Upon meeting a warlord named Kitsch, he became the commander of the Spawn of Hellgates. During his time with the group, he and his soldiers would frequently Rape, Pillage, and Burn in order to help his warlord win the war. When Kitsch finally acquired everything he wanted, he told Angus that the war was over, and now was the time to celebrate and enjoy their victory.
Angus did not take this well, and proceeded to slaughter all of his former comrades, including Kitsch, in a fit of rage. Feeling lost, he reverted back to his old ways, and proceeded to wander around Mossflower taking more innocent lives as he slowly began to lose his sanity. After hearing about the Red Sand tribe, he eventually found the tribe's location and convinced their leader to join their attack on the Tearmann community. While there, Angus personally killed several soldiers from the Long Patrol as well as a few Tearmannians, including a few children. Angus was separated from the Red Sand tribe after the tribe scattered and had to retreat with his only companion being another tribe member named Dersky. Angus and Dersky spent most of their time spying on the Long Patrol while also trying to regroup with the tribe. After Dersky gave Angus a caustic “The Reason You Suck” Speech, he shoved her from a tree, where she's later captured by the Long Patrol.
At night, Angus sneaks up on one of the soldiers and beheads him before capturing two of the main characters, Honward and Tike Bonson. After tying them both to separate trees, he tries to turn the two friends against each other, forcing them to expose some of each other's dark secrets. He informs both of them that he'll let one of them live, but they have to decide which one. Both of them agree that Hon should be killed, and just when Angus is about to murder Hon, he immediately changes his mind and kills Tike instead, which renders Honward catatonic. Angus decides to let Honward live, but only so he'll suffer and live in his despair, and with the possibility that Honward will pull a Face–Heel Turn and become like him in the future. He spends the rest of the night looking for more soldiers to kill, but this ends up being his downfall. After a mercenary group working with the Long Patrol uses one of his own wounded soldiers as bait, Angus kills the wounded soldier, giving one of the hares enough time to shoot Angus with an arrow. Angus is later wounded again by another soldier and is later cornered by Urthquake and several other hares. Realizing he's lost, Angus accepts his fate with a grin on his face. Just before his Karmic Death, he gloats that he's lived happy, glorious life, that he's glad he took dozens of lives, and that everyone around him should be more like him, and should stop trying to pretend that they're goodbeasts.
Not really. When Angus is about to kill the warlord, he rants that he's special, and that the warlord is "throwin' him away like trash." But at no point did Kitsch treat him terribly; the warlord gave him everything he wanted. And when Kitsch basically said that they're done and for him to go home, Angus literally burst into tears and basically threw a temper tantrum that resulted in him murdering everyone around him because he was angry. All that showed was that deep down, he's a Smug Snake whenever he doesn't get what he wants.
Redeeming Qualities?
Nope. He obviously had some kind of Villainous Friendship with Kitsch, and he was obviously affable enough to his comrades in order to lead them. But that was all thrown out the door when he killed them all.
Is He Heinous By The Series Standards?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is where it gets tricky. I'll try not to go into a lot of detail. Basically, the fanfic deals heavily with Grey-and-Gray Morality. The Long Patrol is led by a badger named Urthquake who is more or less committing genocide against the vermin because he doesn't want another Cluny the Scorage or Slagar the Cruel to show up again. We first see him chopping a pregnant ferret in half while she pleads for her life, and then he justifies what he does by saying that her unborn child would inevitably grow up to hate goodbeasts and become a warlord or some evil emperor, etc. The badger's a huge Anti-Hero (if not a flat-out Designated Hero) and his corrupt actions are negatively influencing his troops. His troops don't commit actions as horrible as Urthquake, but whenever they see him commit said actions, they usually look the other way or, at best, will call him out on it, and then look the other way or try to justify what he did.
Meanwhile, there's a group of pirates consisting of thieves, rapists, murderers, etc led by a captain who wants to take over Mossflower. However, a lot of these pirates are Punch Clock Villains or seemingly affable; even the captain is A Father to His Men. Nevertheless, they have no problem killing anyone who goes up against them, although they don't always resort to kicking the dog.
Another section of the story focuses on a young rat just trying to survive, running into various other creatures both good and evil along the way. There's a group of cannibalistic lizards who want to destroy the world; there's Guosim shrews, which is led by a backstabbing leader well on his way to driving his own tribe into the ground (even though all the shrews are goodbeasts who are just following a shrew who only cares about himself).
...Eh, long story short, this series is on par with Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire and Spartacus: Blood and Sand when it comes to heinousness.
What makes Angus different from every other villain or Anti-Hero is that he's the only character (so far) whose backstory did nothing to make him sympathetic. Several characters have a Dark and Troubled Past or are a Jerkass Woobie; even Urthquake, with everything he's done, is still not coping well with the fact that he was gang-raped by vermin in front of his family, and then forced to watch as they were all butchered in front of him after the vermin promised they would spare them. Even villains and anti-heroes who don't have tragic pasts are, at the very least, pretty affable or have some redeeming qualities (there are some other villains I wanna discuss, one of whom is a pedophile, but they're not dead yet, so I'll wait).
Does the story have a plot?
Yes it does. Is the story all grim shit-dark and black-pissed edgy Shadow the Hedgehog style? Somewhat yes. But the story isn't just endless Gorn and characters getting tortured by the villains. One part of the story is about a group of soldiers who have all been traumatized by war and are still fighting and endless fight against villains, desperate to seek peace. One part of the story is about a group of pirates trying to take over Mossflower after feeling that goodbeasts are solely targeting them and hunting them down like dogs just because they're vermin. Another part of the story is about a young rat trying to live in this Crapsack World that's somewhat similar to a Zombi Apocalypse story like The Walking Dead. Except the walkers are replaced with cannibalistic lizards. And while all this is happening, many characters' pasts are explored, some characters develop over time, and there are even a few light-hearted Breather Episodes here and there so the story doesn't continuously stay dark.
Final Verdict?
I'm not sure. We don't see Angus commit every vile act in the story; some of it is Offstage Villainy. But we do see the important acts, such as him murdering his parents, him slaughtering his own crew of soldiers, the lives he claims in Tearmann, and we see him brutally, and excessively, kill several members of the Long Patrol. And unlike many other villains, Angus knows what he is and that what he's doing is wrong and evil. But he continues to do it because it's entertaining to him, and because he feels like he's the right dosage of evil that the world needs.
So what do you guys think? Is he good or no? Or is the story too dark for anyone to qualify?
Edit: Oh God, I need to stop doing Wall of Text effortposts. X___X
edited 11th Jan '16 2:11:10 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.@bobg: I think I did already. O__o Hold on...
Hmm. Yup. I did an effortpost on him last January
. (My God, have I really been on this forum that long?
). Back then I didn't do a "proper" effortpost; I didn't discuss the heinous standard.
To be fair, Blackheart was just a Starter Villain. He does a lot with the time he's given, and we see the slaves that are trapped and abused within his fortress. But he has very limited screentime; he shows up in chapter 7. He's dead by the end of chapter 8. And unlike Angus, who has more of a personality and got his own Day in the Limelight, Blackheart goes around kicking the dog several times, relishing in his evil ways, and that's about it.
He is a slaver though. And the story does mention that children are being held in his fortress too.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.RIP David Bowie
Anywho, Gilday probably has enough votes, so here's his write-up. Anyone else who cares to vote is welcome, of course, as you can never have too many of those.
Note: I've spoiler tagged Gilday's name, as it's a spoiler in the novel itself.
Creatures of Appetite: The Iceman, Jeff Gilday, is a twisted psychopath who, after being rejected by his long-time crush, Barb Mullens, in favor of his best friend, decided to murder Barb's child daughter, Darcy. To better avoid suspicion for the crime, The Iceman decided to mask Darcy's death as just one of numerous killings, and, to this end, began kidnapping young girls between 5 and 12 years old, at which point he would sadistically murder and eat them. After butchering 20 girls, 9 of whose body parts he left in an area highly-populated by children, just to terrify the kids, The Iceman kidnaps Darcy, and, when dropping off one of his victims' bodies, opens fire on numerous police officers. Framing an innocent man for his crimes, The Iceman forces him to eat body parts of one of the children to further incriminate the man, then shoots him in the head to make it look like a suicide. Capturing Emma Kane after murdering her current date, The Iceman tries to force her to watch as he kills and eats Darcy, at which point he plans to do the same to her. When Kane's partner shows up, The Iceman tries to murder an officer, leaving him crippled for life in the process, then makes one last attempt to escape by using Darcy as a human shield. When questioned by Kane as to why he ate the children, The Iceman simply replied, "They taste good."
edited 11th Jan '16 3:08:45 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!@Demon Duck: You basically gotta be an evil warlord (Cluny), a mass murderer and/or ruthless tyrant (Tsarmina, Ungatt, Vilu), a cannibalistic murderer (Gulo), a ruler willing to hurt children and his own troops (Slagar), or a narcissistic asshole who spends his life killing anyone in his path, seeing his own soldiers as cannon fodder, and be willing to emotionlessly murder your own son (Swartt). Or a combination of all of these.
Also what the hell.
Iceman.
So when it comes to fanfics and the heinous standard, do we base it off the fanfic's universe alone, or both the fanfic universe and the canon universe the fanfic's based off of?
edited 11th Jan '16 3:07:48 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Speaking of Redwall, I found this on Cluny's character page. Don't know if it's enough to disqualify, but wanted to get this out there:
- Pet the Dog: Surprisingly, he gets one moment. When Darkclaw confides that he really doesn't know anything about tunneling, Cluny reassures him that he considers him a good officer, and that he'll still be able to make himself useful.
edited 11th Jan '16 3:18:03 PM by ACW
I took a look at the Shaula entry at the CM page and I noticed it is all italicizes can someone fix it?
edited 11th Jan '16 3:18:18 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYeah, I was wondering if that was just Pragmatic Villainy or what have you. Thank goodness, as it saves me the trouble of having to find another quote.
Incidentally, it's only Monday, and already there are 5 entries
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Hmm. It's possible he just said that to encourage Darkclaw to get moving. Whenever any of his soldiers dies, he usually just shrugged it off. ...Then again it has been a while since I read the book. >__<
Edit: Yes, Pragmatic Villainy. I did not forget that that was a trope.
edited 11th Jan '16 3:25:03 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.No, Cluny's care for his lieutenants is nonexistent. He routinely puts them in dangerous situations, shrugs off their deaths, occasionally sacrifices them and is just as likely to flip out on them during a mood swing. Redtooth, his initial second in command, is written off without much of a second thought. Scragg, a weasel he actual seems to like, gets nothing more than a "Meh, if he's dead he's dead, stop whining about it"
The only time he's genuinely angry is Cheesethief's death, and that's only because he lost a guy he thought of as a valuable officer. Cluny does not do Pet the Dog at all.
edited 11th Jan '16 3:29:19 PM by Lightysnake
Lighty, I was looking back, and a couple of entries that I don't know were voted down or what:
- "The Greek
"
- And you mentioned Dahak and The Sovereign
from Hercules.
Yeah, Cluny didn't care about anyone but himself. No Pet the Dogs, no nothing.
Also I apologize if this one was brought up before, but did Skull Face from MGSV count? I didn't think he did because everyone in that game was a villain in some fashion but I'm curious.
I have another nominee from the Project Nemesis series. The original Alicio Brice, the sociopathic scientist from Island 731. I'll do an effort post later but he's the only one in the series that's as bad as Lance Gordon was later.
No, I think we all mostly down-voted him.
So, anyone else for voting on Angus?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.What about the other 2 Hercules characters?
As for Skull-Face: Some consider him a WIE; I don't know about that, but his backstory DEFINITELY gives him some Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds aspects.
Alright, new proposal time. Gabriel Yulaw from The One, played by Jet Li.
Okay, some background. In this film, a Multiverse exists; each time a major star is destroyed and a black hole forms, a new universe is created. Each dimension has a different version of, well, everyone. When one person dies, they're alternate versions gains that persons strength, speed, and mental capacity. Now, for the Big Bad.
Who is Gabriel Yulaw
He's a former interdimensional law enforcer. He was partners with MVA Agent Harry Rodecker. During one of his missions, he killed an alternate version of himself in self-defense. It was then that he realized that he gained his other self's essence. He came to the conclusion that, by killing every version of himself, he would become the One, a Physical God. Rodecker mentions that this could alternatively cause the universe to end, but Yulaw doesn't care.
What Has He Done
As I mentioned, he plans to kill every version of himself. And he's been succeeding. In two years, he's succeeded in killing 123 versions of himself. He's finally caught right after murdering his latest victim; by then, there are only two versions left: him, and Gabe Law.
Yulaw is sentenced to be sent to the Hades dimension, but he's freed by his henchwoman. He proceeds to kill several officers before transporting himself to Gabe Law's universe to kill him. Upon arriving, he kills several police officers while trying to kill Gabe. He shoots him, but is forced to flee. He then attempts to kill him at the hospital, and murders another police officer. He escapes, and Gabe ends up being framed for the death.
While driving a stolen bus, Yulaw is confronted by Rodecker. Yulaw wastes no time delivering a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown on his former ally, ultimately killing him. He then savagely beats three police officers. He then proceeds to go to Gabe's house, where he kills Gabe's wife, making sure that Gabe is watching while he does this.
He finally fights Gabe in an abandoned warehouse, which ends with him, Gabe and MVA Agent Evan Funsch being transported back to MVA headquarters. Yulaw then tells the officers that Gabe is the culprit, and he is nearly sentenced to the Hades universe. However, Evan clears this up, and Yulaw gets sent to the Hades universe instead. Gabe is then sent to a different dimension, where his wife survives.
Yulaw is last seen in the Hades dimension, battling hundreds of warriors as the film ends.
Redeeming traits and other mitigating factors
He used to be a MVA officer. USED to be.
He likes the music in Gabe's dimension.
His character page says he operates on Blue-and-Orange Morality. Two words: Bull Crap. His morality is clear; he wants to become Godlike by killing every alternate version if himself. That is not BAOM.
So, yeah, I think he counts.
edited 11th Jan '16 4:43:30 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?

Well, since Satan has more than enough votes to qualify, I'll provide a write-up.
edited 11th Jan '16 1:55:39 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?