TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50576: Jan 11th 2016 at 8:14:03 AM

@Tyk: I think sanfranman91 wanted to propose Quinn.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#50577: Jan 11th 2016 at 8:17:39 AM

@ Tyk: Baron Quinn has a brain tumour and so doesn't have full control over his actions, and cares about his third wife's safety. He doesn't qualify.

Went over Tales of Rebirth again, proposing yet another candidate (it's that kind of game).

Who is he?

Saleh, Tomha's partner and Four Stars general.

What he does:

Saleh is obsessed with destroying 'the power of the heart', essentially for no other reason than for his own amusement at seeing people despair/ruining people's lives. He also:

- Threatens to kill ordinary civilians for 'not obeying him fast enough' and is only stopped by higher-ups interfering

- Impedes the heroes' progress at multiple points by sending people to die against them

- Brainwashes the comedy villains (think Jessie, James, and Meowth) into killing the heroes or trying until their bodies give out

- In a flashback, is shown to have almost killed Mao (an amnesiatic child) and was only stopped by Eugene getting in the way of his attacks

- Deliberately provokes Gajuma people to heighten racial tensions

- Is a conscious and active member of an organization that wants to erradicate all Huma, despite being Huma himself

- Laughs at people's suffering and pain

- Takes delight in casing suffering and misery wherever he goes

- Kills his partner as he lies dying because he can.

Redeeming Factors or Qualities:

A big part of his character is the fact that he HAS no redeeming qualities, and he's not given any reason he's the way he is. He just is. This is brought up in-universe on multiple occasions.

Heinous Standard:

He's a different, more impersonal evil than Tomha, though the two are often working together so they do quite a few of the same acts, so I believe he also qualifies.

Does he control his own actions:

Yes, and he takes great delight in them.

Final Thoughts:

He's gross. He's meant to be gross and hateful and unable to comprehend good, but I really hated this guy. But whether he's bad enough compared to Tomha, I leave up to you guys.

edited 11th Jan '16 8:18:45 AM by PhiSat

Oissu!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50578: Jan 11th 2016 at 8:36:28 AM

Wait, who's this Tohma? And how does Saleh compare with the only current CM from that game (Zilva)?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50579: Jan 11th 2016 at 8:41:25 AM

So was there a discussion about non-examples that you feel ought to have qualified (or at least just came close enough to qualifying) or examples that you feel oughtn't have qualified while I was away? I should've been informed! Heck, I wish there was a whole thread dedicated to the subject!

For non-examples I feel were so awful they should have qualified or might have qualified had it not been for some mitigating factor: Sykes, Turbo, Injun Joe, Jadis, Hopper, Syndrome, Ghetsis, Dr. Ein, Tao Pai Pai, Majora, The Shadow Queen, Dartz, Anton Sevarius, Trigon, Dr. Lugae, Exdeath, Jenova, President Shinra, Keel Lorenz, Copy Rezo, Arlong, Sir Crocodile, Eneru, Spandam, Sakyo, Director Kakuzawa, Louis Bridgette, Nakago, Ren Sohma, Daemon Spade, Buffalo Bill, President Coin, Clockwerk, Ephidel, Sonia Reed, Pigma Dengar, Brooke Augustine, Junko Enoshima, Gideon Graves, G4 Tirek, Grune, Gallaxhar, Rumpelstiltskin (Shrek), Mad Dog, Grandfather, Eddy's Brother, Lord Barkis, Professor Pericles (pre-finale timeline), and at least half the Naruto and Bleach villains we discussed (namely Orochimaru, Obito, Madara, Mayuri, Grand Fisher, and Numb Chandelier). And probably some movie villains I'm forgetting. Wow, that was a lot. tongue

For examples I feel shouldn't have qualified... not quite as much. I have mixed feelings about Light Yagami qualifying since, while I hate him, he does seem to at least start of with some pure ideals and a twisted sense of altruism, and has some form of love for his family (namely his sister and father). I'm still not a fan of the Pokemon anime's depiction of Cyrus qualifying since I know for certain that's not how the character is written literally everywhere else in the franchise. I'm still not sure Mitsuki Konishi is truly bad enough to qualify compared to the other Reapers. I feel Hidan might as well be cut since all the other Naruto examples were, plus he's apparently nice to children according to an Akatsuki Gaiden. And I have reservations about Xykon and Kid Icarus Hades counting, Xykon less so since Characterization Marches On is in play when it comes to his silliness.

And yes, let's please not actually reignite anything until/unless we all have the time, room, energy, and patience for it. just bugs me

When did Robotnik commit murder?

I recall there was a one-shot rebel character that he had killed off in one of the first episodes, and the backstory episodes showed him to be responsible for deaths and casualties.

edited 11th Jan '16 8:52:48 AM by ANewMan

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#50580: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:02:49 AM

@ACW: Tomha is a villain I proposed from Rebirth several dozen pages back who received quite a few upvotes and I've written an entry for. It must have gotten missed among everything else.

Zilva... In my opinion, should be cut, because while she's definitely vile she's only shown murdering one person (albeit very cruelly) and being a racist bitch. Tomha horrifically abuses a girl for years, turns her into a tykebomb, and kills her mother, then laughs about it while Saleh goes around hurting/trying to kill people for fun, attempts to kill a child, and laughs about it. She should be the one being compared to them to me, not the other way around.

Oissu!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50581: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:04:34 AM

[tup] Saleh

edited 11th Jan '16 9:05:45 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50582: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:12:32 AM

Wait. What akatsuki gaiden is this where Hidan is nice to kids?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50583: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:13:19 AM

[up] I've yet to see it myself, but someone once told me that side material about the Akatsuki showed Hidan as having standards about hurting children. I can't find anything about that, though, and feel it might have been based on something mistranslated.

Tomah, Saleh, and Zilva would all be [tup] for me since they seem equally culpable in the worst atrocities of that game.

edited 11th Jan '16 9:18:07 AM by ANewMan

MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#50584: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:27:12 AM

[tup] For Saleh.

Just for fun: are there any other CM villains on the list similar to Archibald Snatcher ? A villain with comedic traits who apparently looks like a standard villainous jerk, but eventually reveals his true evil nature ? I simply ask him because Snatcher is one of my favourite villain we got.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50585: Jan 11th 2016 at 9:27:21 AM

I found Tohma's entry; if he was approved, I'll do it with this week's group.
As for Hidan, unless that work can be found AND is canon, I think he still stays.
As for [up], don't know about comedic, but as for standard Jerkass->Complete Monster, look at DickHardly.

edited 11th Jan '16 9:29:15 AM by ACW

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#50589: Jan 11th 2016 at 10:21:28 AM

Rest in peace, David Bowie. The man was revolutionary.

On the subject of Snatcher, I'd like to propose a touched-up writeup for him because the old one is a work of mine I'm not proud of.

The Boxtrolls: Archibald Snatcher is a self-styled Boxtroll exterminator, the primary villain of the plot, and, while initially appearing to be eccentric and goofy, reveals himself as something far more unhinged as the story runs its course. A Social Climber who envies the lifestyles of higher society (the elite "White Hats") Snatcher drives forth a campaign to eliminate every Boxtroll in Cheesebridge to motivate the White Hats into letting him join higher society. Ten years prior to the main plot, Snatcher is shown attempting to extort something out of the father of the-then infant Eggs by threatening the baby's life; when Eggs' father refuses to cooperate with his demands, Snatcher apparently kills him with a wrench (in actuality keeping the man under locks until he was driven to insanity). Snatcher, as the plot continues, obliterates the Boxtrolls' home and gleefully attempts to crush them en masse while forcing Eggs to watch, and shortly after dresses the boy as a Boxtroll and then attempts to burn him alive in his attempt to endear himself to the White Hats. Shown at various times as a self-concerned megalomaniac who would willingly try to kill children to further his goals, Snatcher really stands out in such a lighthearted movie.

edited 11th Jan '16 10:26:44 AM by Scraggle

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#50590: Jan 11th 2016 at 10:27:35 AM

I'll give an [tup] for Saleh.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50591: Jan 11th 2016 at 10:37:06 AM

Funny that Snatcher should come up since I finally saw that movie recently, and if I'd had seen it at the time of the voting I'd have given him a firmer [tup] than I did. He's a largely comedic villain in terms of his Laughably Evil characterization, but as I put it before, he's like a deconstruction of your typical cartoon villain who persecutes kids and races of good-hearted creatures (think Gargamel, Katrina Stoneheart, Professor Coldheart, the Purple Pieman, Duke Igthorn, etc.) and the deconstruction part is in just how freaking horrifying his actions and the lengths he goes to in hopes of fulfilling his ambitions are presented as, which is how such things would come across in real life. There's really nothing funny whatsoever about the things he actually does and his vilest qualities are played straight to the point where he darkens the tone of the film in it's second half.

As for any others like him, one of the most famous Complete Monster characters was actually very much like him in terms of how he was presented in the story - Kefka Palazzo. His first crime against Terra is nasty but done seemingly on orders from the Emperor, and then when we first meet him in person he comes off as a complete buffoon and Jerkass who could no doubt serve as a comic relief villain, like Ultros actually ends up being. And then he goes and poisons an entire kingdom against orders when we next see him. Suddenly, he starts to get real scary and loathsome, and you know the rest.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50592: Jan 11th 2016 at 12:06:52 PM

Speaking of Kefka...is the Final Fantasy stuff ready to be swapped?

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#50593: Jan 11th 2016 at 12:09:23 PM

[up] I think so. Also, can you request to cut Injurin Joe?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50595: Jan 11th 2016 at 12:26:14 PM

[up][up]Injurin' Joe was already cut.

Re Snatcher: I remember I was initially hesitant on him qualifying. Not because of the comedic traits, but I got the slight impression he could've turned good if he hadn't, well, died. Probably his expression during Eggs' speech that made it look like he was considering turning good before shooting down that chance. Probably isn't disqualifying, but I thought it'd merit a mention.

Why so serious?
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50596: Jan 11th 2016 at 12:41:56 PM

[up] The expression was more about his nervousness of eating the cheese and maybe some self-loathing sadness or shame over how low he'd sunk in order to get to this point once Eggs said "it won't change who you are", but he wasn't remotely going to consider turning good - he'd honestly deluded himself into thinking that he'd done what needed to be done in order to reach his "destiny." So it was a pure Ignored Epiphany and Redemption Rejection there.

edited 11th Jan '16 2:45:13 PM by ANewMan

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#50597: Jan 11th 2016 at 1:11:26 PM

RIP David Bowie. You will be missed, you musical genius.

Speaking of David Bowie, was Emperor Mateus based off him? Particularly his Amano/Dissidia design?

And I'm not trying to dispute any existing examples right now. For instance I'm kind of opposed to Dark Moon!King Boo given that his portrayal as this Omnicidal Maniac megalomaniac disposition is only in one game and he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist in other games at worst and a ridiculously comedic villain like Bowser in others.

Edit: Yeesh, didn't think people would take that like I was implying I like disturbing shit like that. I'll just have you guys disregard that and Let Us Never Speak of This Again.

I wanted to start off 2016 with a clean slate but I guess I won't be doing that. O_O

Having read it just now I see where you all are coming for. I'm sorry I subjected you to that. Believe me, that kind of thing disturbs me just as much as it disturbs you.

edited 11th Jan '16 6:07:01 PM by Klavice

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50598: Jan 11th 2016 at 1:33:28 PM

...okay, no offense, but...that was really, really disturbing.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50599: Jan 11th 2016 at 1:37:49 PM

Klavice I think you managed to top most of your behavior from last year with that one post you made.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50600: Jan 11th 2016 at 1:38:10 PM

Gonna have to second that. That was horrifying and nonsensical. Please never do it again.


Total posts: 326,048
Top