TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#50376: Jan 9th 2016 at 2:32:58 AM

If the could make a conscious choice to be a better person, yes.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50377: Jan 9th 2016 at 3:47:44 AM

BTW, I was looking, and I found several other entries with quotes (some of these I had the quotes, but not all of them):

So...yeah.

edited 9th Jan '16 3:58:18 AM by ACW

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50378: Jan 9th 2016 at 6:48:33 AM

Aren't quotes allowed for other tropes? If so, I don't think I have a problem with them here so long as they're relevant to the character and aren't obscenely long.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#50379: Jan 9th 2016 at 7:01:40 AM

^^ I have to agree with OE. This really seems like creating a problem where there isn't one.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50380: Jan 9th 2016 at 7:12:40 AM

Hey, I'm fine with quotes. And to answer the question, yes, they are allowed for other tropes.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50381: Jan 9th 2016 at 8:05:19 AM

I think it's more that quotes look odd at the bottom of an entry. At least, that's how I understood the complaint.

edited 9th Jan '16 8:05:35 AM by LargoQuagmire

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#50382: Jan 9th 2016 at 8:44:21 AM

My complaint originated with the Gregor Clegane entry more than anything. We were talking about making it shorter and the quote seemed like the most obvious thing to go. I will reiterate that the quotes below the entry don't matter on an individual YMMV page, but on the actual trope page I personally think they look odd. The vast majority of the entries don't have them, but other tropers may disagree.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#50383: Jan 9th 2016 at 9:07:19 AM

I want to ask a question; does Palpatine commit any heinous deeds in Star Wars Rebels show? If so, should we list them? I never watched the show.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#50384: Jan 9th 2016 at 9:44:39 AM

So far, Palpatine has had only one brief appearance over hologram on Rebels and done nothing directly other than telling Vader to send Inquisitors after the main characters and to hunt for Ahsoka and other surviving Jedi. Nothing of significance here, IMO, but the show is ongoing.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50385: Jan 9th 2016 at 10:15:18 AM

So far the only qualifier to appear in Rebels would be Tarkin, seeing as he's still the same bastard he always is in canon and some of the worst shit that went down in the first season happened on his orders.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#50386: Jan 9th 2016 at 10:43:29 AM

I will give a [tup] to fanfic!Medusa and Shaula.

[tdown] to Issac.

I think I have one no vote, two yes votes and a couple of abstaining votes on Malik, if there is no change in voting on him, I will cut the unapproved write up someone added to the Enterprise YMMV and just drop the matter.

Anyway, I was reading some old Punisher stories and I think I found another villain who could count:

Who is General Kreigkopf? What has he done?

General Kreigkopf is a former US military official who was kicked out of the army for his sadistic behavior. Kreigkopf fled to Grand Nixon Island, an island in the South Pacific and took over, setting it up as a hub for criminals and mercs. Kreigkopf resurrects the Russian, a powerful assassin the Punisher recently killed. The Russian wants to kill Punisher for revenge and Kreigkopf lets him, but Punsiher once again defeats the Russian and Kreigkopf's scientists have repair the Russian again.

Punisher decides to go after Kreigkopf and the Russian. Kreigkopf sends some of his men after the Punisher and sends the Russian and some other men to kill a high value target in Europe. Punisher kills the men following him and destroys the plane heading to Europe.

This really sets Kreigkopf off. As it happens there is a French military official on the island, using it as a refueling depot before testing a nuclear bomb in the pacific ocean. Kreigkopf steals the nuke and plans to drop it on Brussels, feeling that no one will mess with Grand Nixon Island after that and that he get several new clients for his services after such a demonstration of power. Punisher manages to turn the tables on Kreigkopf, dropping the nuke on Grand Nixon Island, killing the Russian, Kreigkopf and his men.

Is he heinious by the standard of the story?

We are talking about the Punisher, the bar is going to be high. This is 616 Punisher, so none of the Max villains are in the running in terms of heinousness. 616 Punisher deals with some pretty nasty people, serial killers, hit men, murderous mob bosses, etc. There is also Samuel Smith, the other monster who wanted to sterilized most the world and tried to poison members of his own cult. There is also a story where an ex SHIELD agent kills several civilians within an hour.

Now within this story, Punisher drops the nuke on Grand Nixon Island, killing everyone there, around 2000 people. However the story makes it very clear that only really bad criminals are on the island, Kreigkopf wouldn't allow anyone else there and Punisher was trying to stop that nuke from destroying Brussels, so I will cut Punisher some slack there.

Also most Punisher villains do not try to aim for a body count of hundreds of thousands like Kreigkopf did. I think Kreigkopf stands out.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

Yeah, Kreigkopf is an evil Garth Ennis villain, so that's a no on a Freudian Excuse or any redeeming qualities.

Now this the Garth Ennis 616 Punisher title we are talking about, it is far more comedic then the Max universe. The Russian's new cyborg body has giant breasts and there is a story with an insane gangster who tries to kill the Punisher with killer taxi cabs.

However it is not all laughs, there is a story that is very heart felt, where Punsiher kills one his former Vietnam war buddies who has gone insane and started killing random people and that comes off as very tragic.

Kreigkopf is not played for laughs. He threatens to do horrible things to Punisher's body after he dies and Kreigkopf's back story outlines some of the horrible things he did before coming to Grand Nixon Island (including letting a platoon after his command commit mass rape in a village, I didn't mention before because it was off panel, but it establishes him as a serious and monstrous villain).

Now it seems like the President (who seems to be a satire version of George W Bush) ordered Kreigkopf to attack the Punisher (the US government seemed to still be using Kreigkopf for certain off the books work), but nuking Brussels was all Kreigkopf's idea.

Final Verdict?

I would say he counts.

edited 9th Jan '16 11:31:30 AM by Overlord

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50387: Jan 9th 2016 at 10:52:43 AM

Hey, I noticed that Shan Yu is labelled a Generic Doomsday Villain on his character page. Should that be removed?

edited 9th Jan '16 10:54:32 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50388: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:12:15 AM

[up][up] Trying to nuke a fairly major city seems to be enough. [tup] the General.
[up] That seems like a bad use. He may be a Flat Character, but not TOTALLY devoid of personality.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50389: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:13:11 AM

[tup] Kreigkopf. It's the trying to nuke Brussels thing that gets me.

[up] Yes, remove him. He's got a personality.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50390: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:23:21 AM

The entry even stated that he didn't have much personality "compared to the other Disney villains".

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50391: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:28:42 AM

Well, that may be true enough, but he has enough to remove him from GDV territory.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50392: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:31:54 AM

Okay, I removed him. Also, yes to the General.

edited 9th Jan '16 11:32:08 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50394: Jan 9th 2016 at 11:52:38 AM

@Clown-Face: Yeah, not having as much personality as the average Disney villain does not a GDV make. At all.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#50395: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:14:14 PM

The General sounds pretty heinous but i'm not sure just yet if im going to vote him up. It sounds like he only crosses a single MEH and he's in a series with a pretty high heinous standard....so suffice to say he's going to have to go above and beyond to stand out.

Is it made it explicit that their were hundreds of thousands of people in the city the General tried to blow up?

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#50396: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:38:24 PM

[up] ...What? It's the capital of Belgium (not to mention the de facto capital of the European Union and NATO). [tup] for Kreigkopf (real subtle name there).

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50397: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:39:21 PM

[up] You mean Brussels, the capital of Belgium? A nuke there would likely results in millions of deaths.
What [up] said [nja]

edited 9th Jan '16 12:39:39 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50398: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:39:36 PM

Yeah, keep him. A cut above most Frank baddies

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#50399: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:49:54 PM

Oh then definite [tup] to the General. I know that might have sound like a stupid question but I never really paid good attention in my History class and wanted to make sure.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#50400: Jan 9th 2016 at 12:49:54 PM

[tup] General

edited 9th Jan '16 12:50:06 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!

Total posts: 326,048
Top