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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50326: Jan 8th 2016 at 12:36:37 PM

Regarding Ox Baker, I'm not convinced pro wrestling is a genre that can have a CM, since what little I've seen is so comedic. Then again, I haven't seen much, because I just don't like it, so I could be very wrong.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50327: Jan 8th 2016 at 12:41:58 PM

You know, if Ox did try to kill more wrestlers, we may have to reconsider his exclusion...
Anyway, the Final Fantasy tweakings are done, and will be submitted no earlier than Monday and no later than next weekend.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50328: Jan 8th 2016 at 12:43:32 PM

It was brought up multiples times that Ox Baker attempted to murder literally every wrestler he ever fought, he was still cut.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#50329: Jan 8th 2016 at 1:01:19 PM

Since I saw a few thumbs-up for Medusa, so I'm under the assumption she is approved, in which case:

  • Complete Monster: Medusa Gorgon is just as bad as she is canonically. In the past, she coerced Crona into murdering a helpless old man and later an Evil Human implied to be Crona’s father. After her supposed end during the first Baba Yaga Castle invasion, Medusa is revealed to have split her soul to survive and usurps the body of a pauper, going on to formulate her next plan of action. She gets her younger sister, Shaula, involved, and her treatment of her is no different. When Shaula fails to destroy Death Weapon Meister Academy from the inside, Medusa betrays her and tries to claim her soul to power up Ouroboros. It fails, but by then she has already ushered Maka and company in to Cobra Island. In addition, despite neither party knowing each other, she brings along Caius, Claudia, the Ricardsens, and the Ardsens and treats them with the same cruelty as the people she knows. To make matters worse, those innocent people literally could have been anyone else. As they advance, Ouroboros removes a power or characteristic that effectively renders the person useless. She figures that out by forcing them to play rigged games. Finally, it is revealed she brainwashed Krysa and used outlawed magic on Atlas to enhance her subterfuge, uncaring of the details or consequences. Remorseless and reveling in everyone’s suffering, Medusa wanted revenge and to control Madness so she could control the world.

It probably doesn't make sense without context, but does that suffice?

edited 8th Jan '16 1:46:21 PM by erazor0707

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50330: Jan 8th 2016 at 1:04:16 PM

[tup] to Medusa.

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#50331: Jan 8th 2016 at 1:10:59 PM

[tup]Fan Fic!Medusa.

edited 8th Jan '16 2:09:45 PM by AustinDR

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50332: Jan 8th 2016 at 1:18:43 PM

Also, before I forget... ACW, here's the Rawhead Rex image.

[1]

edited 8th Jan '16 1:19:11 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#50333: Jan 8th 2016 at 1:50:30 PM

You know that medusa from Soul Eater has got me thinking, did you guy talked about any other possible CM candidates from Soul Eater besides Medusa and just to be safe Asura?

Also [tup] for Fanfic Medusa

edited 8th Jan '16 1:51:22 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#50334: Jan 8th 2016 at 2:03:19 PM

I think Medusa is the only one who qualifies. Giriko and Asura are likely candidates but...

Giriko: He has a grand total of ONE redeeming factor in his loyalty to Arachne. Otherwise, he'd fit.

Asura: The events of the manga treat him more akin to a force of nature (Madness, in his case), thus eliminating him. Besides, he hasn't really done anything all that nefarious like Medusa.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#50335: Jan 8th 2016 at 2:41:39 PM

By the way, I know we have obviously not decided on him yet, but there's a bit I found in The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary that makes me think Hux may have impaired agency. His dad was one of the founders of the First Order, and while Hux apparently didn't get formally indoctrinated like Finn, and the other troopers, his father raised him from birth on a diet of 100% pure Imperial propaganda. So that big speech about the Republic being corrupt and chaotic and such right before he presses the big red button? He believes every word of that.

edited 8th Jan '16 2:41:45 PM by HamburgerTime

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50336: Jan 8th 2016 at 2:59:09 PM

It's worth keeping in mind, but remember that Finn was raised to believe in the First Order's propaganda as well, but still pulled a Heel–Face Turn. Even those who were raised to believe something have free will. Believing in the "corruption" of the Republic makes him a Knight Templar, but in my opinion, doesn't damage his moral agency.

edited 8th Jan '16 3:00:26 PM by DeCarta

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#50337: Jan 8th 2016 at 3:15:59 PM

[up][up] My belief is that people should not be products of their culture. People should make their own minds.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50338: Jan 8th 2016 at 3:47:57 PM

@Largo Quagmire - I seem to recall that Magnussen was extensively discussed on this thread before when someone really, really wanted to put him on the trope, but the general consensus was that he didn't count because Jim Moriarty blows him out of the water in terms of the heinous standard. I cannot be the only one here who remembers this?

But when it comes to Complete Monsters, there cannot be a single ounce of redeeming qualities, etc., otherwise they don't count.

The trouble is that sometimes what's "redeeming" in a villain and what's not will be subjective. Audience members might interpret some qualities in a villain as being redeeming when it doesn't come off as such to others, or flat out wasn't intended. (Light Yagami from Death Note got voted up and yet there are dozens of people who believe he was right about most things and that he was acting altruistically for the good of society in the world.) The thing that ultimately gets examples up is if the majority vote is in favor of them qualifying, meaning that the majority of voters feel the villain lacks any truly redeeming qualities.

Though it must be said, in the same work, neither would count (assuming the same resources), as the first has a redeeming quality, but the second isn't as heinous.

I never quite got how that worked exactly. Supposedly a villain who shares a work with a higher tier heinous villain can still qualify for this trope if they are just as sufficiently heinous as they can manage to be with the resources they have at their disposal and within the playing field they operate in, double points if they have less resources yet still manage to be truly heinous. But is there anything saying that in order for this villain to qualify, the higher tier heinous villain has to also qualify? Because I believe there have been some instances where villains who seemed objectively "worse" in terms of crimes or body count didn't make the cut due to mitigating factors while comparatively "small potatoes" villains in the same work did make the cut. just bugs me

edited 8th Jan '16 5:43:28 PM by ANewMan

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50339: Jan 8th 2016 at 3:52:52 PM

[up]Akame ga Kill! comes to mind. Technically, Esdeath has more crimes to her than Syura and Champ in terms of sheer bodycount, but she doesn't count.

edited 8th Jan '16 4:17:41 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#50340: Jan 8th 2016 at 4:03:15 PM

Isaac Grossman was also disqualified since Jack(who also did not qualify) had done far worse, even though Isaac did not have anywhere near the amount o resources that Jack did. I never really agreed with Isaac being downvoted based on that. I would suggest re opening discussion on Isaac Grossman for that reason(not having anywhere near the resources Jack did), but given the new rules regarding creepypastas, I am not sure if Isaac is from the type of creepypasta we would put up on this site. After all, his story has him slowly murdering a 5-6 year old boy in a long drawn out torture method.

jjj
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#50341: Jan 8th 2016 at 4:18:36 PM

[up][up][up]Hidan from Naruto qualifies despite having a lower bodycount and overall smaller scale actions and goals than Orochimaru and Obito (who aren't Complete Monsters due to having redeeming factors) due to I assume being sufficiently heinous in his own right and being one of the few villains in the show to have no excuse for his actions and being motivated just by sadism and bloodlust.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50342: Jan 8th 2016 at 4:28:32 PM

[up][up] As the one who proposed the rules, I can say that torturing a kid to death would not inherently prevent the work from going up, so long as the fic has an actual plot.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#50343: Jan 8th 2016 at 4:39:49 PM

Okay, now that I got that out of the way, I like to propose a possible CM candidate from Soul Eater Prequel/ Spin-Off series, Soul Eater Not!, Medusa Gorgon's sister Shaula Gorgon also the BigBad of this series.

Who is she? Shaula Gorgon is the youngest of the Gorgon sisters and, like her sister Medusa, goes undercover as one of DWMA's staff to perform her heinous experiments, which includes brainwashing innocent civilians turning them into her slaves dubbed traitors in an effort to take down Shibusen.

What does she to?

1. Like I said above she conducts her heinous experiments, which involve, brainwashing innocent civilians with her poison turning them into her slaves she calls traitors.

2 Once her traitors out live their usefulness, she kills them off with out a single hesitation. She demonstrates this cruelty when one of the DWMA student was unable to beat Maka Albarn, she forces that student to kill herself in front of Maka and Tsugumi, laughing while she does it.

3. She also causes Sid's death by injecting him with her poison before using an explosive that results in a replica of the Statue Liberty stabbing him in the head.

4. She then arrives in Death City during the Death festival, and orders her traitors to kill as many innocents as they can to turn them into madness.

5. Through her brainwashing abilities, she forces Meme, whom she was able to control at some point, to attack weapon partner/ friend Tsugumi, not before licking her face nan effort to taunt Tsugumi.

6. Once Meme was free from her control, she goes out on a full rampage in an effort to take down Meme, Tsugumi, Anya, and any other DWMA's students.

Any Redeeming qualities? While the anime series seems to make her reason somewhat sympathetic by stating she was "lonely" due to the actions of DWMA, the manga does not present her with any redeeming qualities at all. She doesn't even show any care or love for her older students, as she always brags about better the best out of the Grogon sisters.

Heinous standard? Given that her actions take place in Soul Eater's Lighter and Softer prequel/ spinoff series, it only makes her stand out even more, than her sisters actions.

Final Verdict?

I would say she, or her manga version at least, could qualify, what about you guys?

Edited by G-Editor on Jun 24th 2020 at 11:37:19 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50344: Jan 8th 2016 at 4:49:29 PM

Leaning [tup] Shaula, but what is the general heinous standard of Soul Eater?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50345: Jan 8th 2016 at 5:52:16 PM

Aside from those Akame ga Kill and Naruto examples, there were examples like Teppei Houjo in Higurashi qualifying even though Miyo Takano, who planned to (and in many realities did) massacre the entire village's population, did not qualify, and Charon in Diamond and Pearl Adventure qualifying even though Cyrus, who'd tried to commit omnicide on the entire universe in order to recreate everything in a new universe of his making, did not qualify.

My point is that it ought to be entirely feasible for a non-CM villain with a bigger rapsheet (including body count and attempted body count) to exist in the same setting and narrative as a CM whose rapsheet is comparatively smaller but who still goes above and beyond in evilness with the resources they have at their disposal within their playing fields and possess no redeeming features.

@bobg: No more creepypasta discussions, please? sad

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50346: Jan 8th 2016 at 6:01:51 PM

@ A New Man - I'm inclined to agree on Magnussen (also Jim is just a thousand times better than him in every way and yes I might be a Jim stan), but an effortpost was requested. It'll be hard to be more heinous than a man who gives two single-digit-aged children a choice between starving to death or eating mercury - laced candy. (And luring them into this using his children's show! Jim sure will fix it won't he? -shiver-)

edited 8th Jan '16 6:02:30 PM by LargoQuagmire

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#50347: Jan 8th 2016 at 6:16:59 PM

After what Demon Duck Of Doom has said, I have decided to try and re open discussion on Isaac Grossman from The Origin Of Laughing Jack. Sinc I don't want to end up like lunacrova, this will be the last time I discuss him on here. After this, I will not bring hi up again. That being said, here is an effortpost:

Who is Isaac Grossman?

Isaac is one of the two main characters in Origin of Laughing Jack, the other one being Jack himself. He was a lonely kid with Abusive Parents. A guardian angel created Laughing Jack to act as Isaac's friend. After Jack accidentally killed a cat and Isaac got the blame, Isaac was sent off to boarding school, leaving Jack behind in his box. 13 years later, Isaac returned.

What does he do?

Now an adult, Isaac dismissed Jack as an imaginary friend from childhood and neglected to open his box. One night, Isaac brought a woman home from the bar. When the woman grew annoyed with Isaac's sexual advances, she slapped him, enraging Isaac, who then tried to rape her. When the woman tried to fight back, Isaac killed her. Developing a liking for murder, Isaac became a Serial Killer, taking people back to his house and torturing them to death for fun. Isaac's second victim was a 5-6 year old boy. Isaac decided to make the boy his next victim because the boy "made a nasty face at him". Isaac tore off two of the boy's fingernails, shattered his knee with a hammer, carved "useless worm" into the boy's chest with a knife, cut off the boy's face, and hit him over the head with a hammer till his head was nothing but a bloody caved in mess of flesh oozing out chunks of brain matter. Isaac later murdered an old woman, before force feeding a little girl broken glass and using her as a punching bag. As the weeks rolled on, Isaac continued to kill more and more people. Eventually, Laughing Jack got out of his box and murdered Isaac.

Heinousness?

The long and drawn out torture and murder of the one child, coupled with the murder of another child and an attempted rape, easily puts Isaac above the baseline of this trope. Now, when I first brought him up, Isaac was downvoted because Laughing Jack was WAY more heinous than Isaac and dis not qualify himself due to Blue And Orange Morallity. However, I wanted to re open discussion on Isaac to remind everyone that originally downvoted him that there is the resource factor. If there is a villain only kills 20 or so people while there is another villain with about 50 victims, the killer of 20 or so can still qualify provided that they do not have access to the resources that the other villai has but still does as much as they can with what they do have. This is exactly the case with Isaac. Jack was a Humanoid Abomination with supernatural powers, whereas Isaac was but a mortal serial killer. In addition, Jack was immortal, and lived for over a hundred years, giving him far more time to do evil then Isaac, whose killing spree only lasted a few months. When voting on Isaac, I think it's best to just ignore Laughing Jack and focus on Isaac himself.

Redeeming features or Freudian Excuse?

Isaac Used to Be a Sweet Kid, but none of the redeeming traits he had as a kid are present in his murderious, adult self. His crimes were done For the Evulz, and his Freudian Excuse can be summed up as "I had abusive parents, and I had a Friendless Background". To me, abusive parents and a friendless background are not enough to disqualify hi considering the nature of his crimes.

I am not sure if this counts as an Alas, Poor Villain moment, but just before he dies, the narrative states that just before Isaac dies, he remembers the time when he was a child and was friends with Jack. However, there is nothing mentioned about him feeling regret for his actions or anything like that.

Does the story have an actual plot?

The Origin Of Laughing Jack is a prequel to Laughing Jack, and it shows Jack's Start of Darkness. There is still a ton of gore, but there is'' a plot revolving around how Jack became the way he did.

Conclusion?

Keeping in mind that Isaac was just a mortal serial killer and should not even be compared to the immortal supernatural monster that was Laughing Jack, and considering the fact that he tortured multiple people to death(at least two of them children), and that he tried to rape a woman, I'd say [tup]

@ A New Man: Sorry, I was making this post when yours came up, so I missed it. This will be the last time I discuss creepypasts here though.

edited 8th Jan '16 6:20:03 PM by bobg

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#50348: Jan 8th 2016 at 6:33:32 PM

My [tdown] for Isaac remains unchanged. Why do why need to re-discuss this? Why do we need to focus on creepypastas again? Is there any new evidence being brought to the table that Isaac counts?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#50349: Jan 8th 2016 at 6:35:50 PM

[up] I re opened discussion because of the resource factor.

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#50350: Jan 8th 2016 at 6:40:57 PM

Abstaining on Issac for now.

Also I think there should be an agreement on limitations of revaluations and reconsidering previous disqualified characters. Personally I think if someone doesn't count after being discussed two or three times, there's a good reason they don't count.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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