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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50251: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:41:25 PM

[up][up] and [up]. Eh, I'm fine either way.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50252: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:47:31 PM

I took a stab at trimming down Gregor's entry. I highly doubt that it's under 300 words, but hopefully, it's more concise.

—> "Her name was Elia of Dorne. First I killed her screaming whelp. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this."

BTW, one of my candidates from The Librarians (season 2's Big Bad) doesn't qualify; not heinous enough. I'll be back with the others after I rewatch a few episodes and take some notes.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#50253: Jan 7th 2016 at 2:21:28 PM

Sorry I was out all day Beast. Smugglers Redemption Malfato is a Serial Killer who is part of the Templars and works for Cesare Borgia. I am not sure how many resources that gives him, but he has all the ones his boss gives him.

jjj
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50254: Jan 7th 2016 at 2:35:13 PM

Easy [tup] Maugrim

I'll try Gregor:

  • Ser Gregor Clegane, alias the Mountain That Rides, is Tywin Lannister's most dangerous Bannerman. He is one of the most feared characters in the setting, and with good reason. As a twelve year old boy, he burned off half of his younger brother Sandor's face [[ Disproportionate Retribution when the latter dared to play with one of Gregor's toys]]—a toy that Gregor did not want anymore. During the Sack of King's Landing, he dashed the baby Prince Aegon's head against a wall, and then raped and murdered his mother, Princess Elia, with her son's brains still on his hands. When he and his men are turned loose on the countryside during the War of the Five Kings, they proceed to rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands, often torturing people to see where they have hidden their gold. At one point they come upon a village. Each day, for ten days, Gregor picks one person from a group of villagers and has his Torture Technician, "the Tickler," question that person over and over, until they die from the torture. One of the villagers, a mother, volunteers to be taken if they will spare her daughter. The next day, he has the daughter questioned too, to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. Another time he smashes a girl's face in for speaking when he wanted silence, then turns her over to his men to be gang-raped for days. At one point, he kills some of the Brave Companions before cutting off strips of flesh from Vargo Hoat and feeding them to him. When confronted by the brother of Princess Elia, who repeatedly asserts that "Her name was Elia of Dorne. You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children," Gregor's only concern (besides killing him) is that the man has gotten the order of events wrong.

edited 7th Jan '16 2:37:52 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#50255: Jan 7th 2016 at 2:44:31 PM

[tup] Maugrim. Where'd he come from, though? Is his origin ever explained?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50256: Jan 7th 2016 at 3:04:58 PM

DeCarta, I like yours. It has his deeds, is on the lengthy side but not overly so (313 words, plus that quote), and also has his deeds by book. A few minor tweaks I wanna make, which I may do this weekend. Definitely an improvement though.

edited 7th Jan '16 3:07:03 PM by ACW

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50257: Jan 7th 2016 at 3:18:41 PM

[up]Thank you. I was hoping to get it to 300 or less, but with a guy like Clegane, that might not be possible. Thankfully, he's in no position to do anything new under his own volition whenever the hell The Winds of Winter comes out, so at least it's not likely to get any longer than it already is.

edited 7th Jan '16 3:26:05 PM by DeCarta

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50258: Jan 7th 2016 at 3:22:33 PM

Actually, you know what, I'm using it for my Final Fantasy edits, but could you please put the Gregor condensing at the very bottom of Complete Monster Stuff? I'll just cut it from there and paste into word, and work on that and Arkham!Joker tomorrow morning or so. Much appreciated in advance.

[down] Thank you my good man. I cut and paste into Word, so tomorrow morning.

edited 7th Jan '16 3:40:13 PM by ACW

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50260: Jan 7th 2016 at 5:02:32 PM

I have to ask, could we hold off on posting tweaked entries or new entries for a day or two from now on? We used to do that in the past and I have no idea when we stopped, because now it seems like no one is able to have enough time to comment on examples because they go up immediately after being written.

edited 7th Jan '16 5:02:52 PM by OccasionalExister

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50261: Jan 7th 2016 at 5:22:02 PM

[up] I think that's a fair idea, though I've heard it's easier to edit such things on a YMMV page than on a forum post.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#50262: Jan 7th 2016 at 6:00:07 PM

[up]This will be my last tweaked entry then. Here's Hunter J's rewrite while still retaining most of the original.

Pokémon Hunter J, as her name implies, is a remorseless poacher of the eponymous species of Pokemon, who hunts rare Pokemon to sell on the black market, with little compunction or restraint in stealing them from other trainers. To do this, J petrifies the Pokémon and leaves it as a statue she keeps in storage, and is perfectly willing to petrify other humans and leave them petrified. Not only does she mistreat any, and all Pokemon and people that work for her but her callous disregard for human and Pokemon has J drop a section of her airship containing several of her own men for the purpose of ridding herself of perpetually ten year old protagonist Ash in her first appearance as well as several Pokemon, and later on attempts to directly kill him and his friends several times, having her Salamence set fire to a densely-populated forest for this purpose. Brutal, sadistic, sociopathic, and Unfettered J ultimately ends up complicit in a scheme which will result in the ultimate destruction of the universe, and ends as one of the only villains with no humane traits in the 800+ episodes of the anime.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#50263: Jan 7th 2016 at 6:17:20 PM

So somebody added Monsieur Thenardier to Les Misérables. Did that clear the thread? I could swear he was cut a long time ago.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50264: Jan 7th 2016 at 6:22:31 PM

@Demon Duck Of Doom: While that's true, I don't think it's that much harder to just copy and paste them from the forum.

@Hamburger Time: No, you're correct, Threnadeir was cut for insufficient heinousness a while ago.

edited 7th Jan '16 6:24:47 PM by OccasionalExister

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50266: Jan 7th 2016 at 6:29:07 PM

What does Threnedeir do?

Why so serious?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#50267: Jan 7th 2016 at 6:32:35 PM

[up] He's a con man, thief, abusive dad, does have one attempted murder but was deemed not to breach the baseline heinous standard, especially since the novel is set in the corrupt July Monarchy of France and as such there's a lot of scum to go around.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50268: Jan 7th 2016 at 7:23:50 PM

Thernardier is also not taken seriously by many people and is treated as the guttersnipe he is. Most adaptations play him for laughs, notably the musical, which has displaced the novel in the US.

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#50269: Jan 7th 2016 at 8:46:03 PM

Not proposing her, but from what we already know about her, and from what we've seen of her now that she's appeared in person, I think Yellow Diamond from Steven Universe will end up qualifying.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#50270: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:05:51 PM

I will give a [tup] to Beckett, Maugrim. A late [tup] to the step mother.

[tdown] to Injuring Joe and Bathroy.

Also ACW, I like what you do with Redjac in the Star Trek page, but now Redjac is in both the multi works section and the TV page, that seems a bit redundant, I think he should only be on the multi work section.

Speaking Star Trek, I watched the Enterprise episodes featuring Malik (who someone added as monster to the Enterprise YMMV section without coming here) and will do an effort post on him now:

Who is Malik? What has he done?

Malik is a Augment (genetically engineered person) created by Dr. Arik Soong. Soong was imprisoned by Star Fleet for his illegal experiments, the Augments he created lived secretly in peace on obscure planet for many years, till Malik and some of the other Augments boarded a Klingon ship and killed its entire crew. Malik was tired of living on the planet, when Raakin the leader of the Augments criticized Malik for this action, Malik kills him and takes command.

Malik and the Augments free Soong from the Enterprise and head to a Federation lab that contains several genetically engineered embryos, which Soong plans to use to create more Augments. The lead scientist refuses to give Soong the code for the embryo storage room, Malik suggests infecting one of the other scinsts with a nasty virus sample stored at the lab, to force the lead scientist to comply. Soong reluctantly agrees, planning to administer the cure at the last second, hoping to scare the lead scientist into complying. However Malik defies Soong's order to administer the cure and the scientist dies a pretty horrible death. Soong seems pretty shaken by this. When Malik threatens to do the same thing to Phlox, the scientist agrees to give him the code. Malik also steals several virus samples and attempts to release all the viruses in the lab, hoping to kill everyone there. Malik also kills an Augment that he deems inferior in the lab.

Soong plans to develop the embryos in a remote planet and plans to remove any sort of aggression from them. Malik disagrees, planning to prevent the Federation from interfering with them, by using the virus samples to kill every living thing on a Klingon colony, hoping to cause a war between the Federation and the Klingons. When Persis, Malik's girl friend, helps Soong escape, he kills her. The Enterprise thwarts Malik's scheme and disables the stolen Klingon ship they were using, to spite Soong, Malik destroys the Klingon ship, destroying the embryos and killing the remaining Augments. Malik some how managed to transport on to the Enterprise and attempts to kill Soong, but Archer kills him first.

Is he heinious by the standards of the work?

Enterprise has a fairly high standard, it features characters like Dolim, a genocidal warlord who wanted to destroy the human race. However Malik was aiming for a pretty big body count himself, attempting to kill millions of Klingons and start a war that could kill billions. So he is heinious enough.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating facotrs?

Some may argue that Augments lack moral agency because "superior ability creates superior ambition" but I don't buy that. We have seen many genetically engineered people who are good, including Dr. Bashir from DS 9. Persis tried to stop Malik's scheme and Raakin seemed content living on that planet in peace.

Now does Malik have any redeeming qualities? At first seems to admire Soong and sees him as his father, but he quickly sees Soong as weak and grows to despise him. He seems to see most of the other Augments as disposable, considering he kills them all, just to spite Soong the only he might have cared by was Persis. When he kills Persis, he kisses her and says he will miss her. I don't know how we are supposed to take that scene and Malik never mentions Persis again, so are we supposed to assume he would care enough Persis to stop from blowing up the ship? That act showed a lot of contempt towards his fellow Augments and destroyed the embryos he had worked to secure, so its debatable whether Persis being alive would have stayed his hand.

Final Verdict?

I'm not sure, Malik could be startling the line between 100% monster and 99% monster here.

edited 7th Jan '16 9:10:10 PM by Overlord

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50271: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:10:50 PM

Given the scene with Persis, I will be safe and [tdown] Malik.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50272: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:11:09 PM

[up][up][up] Given how slowly SU airs... I'm gonna say we'll have to sit on that one for a while. Also we will have issues of what's shown onscreen, since I sincerely doubt we'll get any visual confirmation of the devastation of the gem colonization.

edited 7th Jan '16 9:11:27 PM by LargoQuagmire

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50273: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:13:30 PM

How is Malik's "I'll miss you" scene with Persis portrayed? Is it done with genuine affection, or in a way that implies he never cared for her?

Why so serious?
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50274: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:20:21 PM

I'd love some background on how he interacted with Persis in other episodes. Were they on good terms? Was a romance ever implied? Anything that explains why he would kill her in such an intimate, contradictory manner?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#50275: Jan 7th 2016 at 9:29:33 PM

[up] Well Persis was originally Raakin's girl firend and Malik was using her to spy on him (she seemed to by trying to play both sides and side with whomever won). Also while Malik grew to despise Soong, Persis still saw him as her father and was unwilling to betray him like she did with Raakin. Malik worked out that Persis was the one who freed him (Persis had been afraid to disable the ship, fearing that Malik will kill her), so Persis picks up a knife and threatens Malik if he doesn't let her leave. Malik advances towards Persis, Persis cuts him, he becomes enraged and kills her.

[up][up] He says it rather matter factly no clear emotional tone, no snide tone, but not a sad one either, then he wipes his lips, he might be shaking a bit (I don't know if that is a sign of rage, grief or just being surprised at what just happened).

edited 7th Jan '16 9:34:40 PM by Overlord


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